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More Sig 320 drama

I am retired from the Feds and was an instructor and on a SORT team and trainer thwre, I also am a Deputy for a school system and a state LE academy Instructor.

No matter where it always seems to be around an 10% 80% 10% breakdown on firearms proficiency.

Top 10% shoot a lot and seek out other than agency training on their own time and dime like Rangemaster, Gunsite and national level trainers

80% while some in that crowd are near the top the majority and average with a lot barely qualifying each year by 10-15 points or less and are the ones that quip “good enough til next year”

And the bottom 10% is who gets agencies to dumb down and ease requirements that has become “no cop left behind” era

The majority of the 80% and all of the bottom 10% only touch their gun to holster it and only shokt it at qualification day!

And last time I assisted at the academy it seems the days of someone failing the academy because they can’t qualify are gone as the powers that run it have them come back for remedial!

If I had my way, I would do away with the huge B27 sized targets that have a huge unrealistic area where they get full value credit for hits that if those were on a normal human would be a graze of the side. Move the X ring up to the heart/Aorta region.

I would require them to shoot the Bakersfield Qual every 2 weeks and alternate with a 5 yard roundup and assessment drill all on B8’s and require an 80 or they drive a desk until they oss.

On a lighter note I know Indianapolis PD if a LEO fails they have a reboot with their Sgt if they fail that a reshoot with their LT if a fail thwre they are pulled from the street without pay and they schedule whem they want a remedial class to get our and if the don’t pass them discipline is started as well as termination proceedings

So while a few agencies handle it most are making it so easy it’s why we see body came video of shootings turn into abortions!

Usually if it goes more tjan 4-7 rounds it’s a mag dunp with maybe a non vital ankle or elbow hit and a lot of walls, windows buildings or vehicles shewed up!
Well said. IMHO shooting requirements for those charged with protecting society and dealing with the two legged predators out there should be Extremely demanding. When I see reports of LEO’s (or worse, multiple LEO’s) expending dozens of rounds in a shootout with some thug I cringe (all those misses HAD to go somewhere). I really think the whole hi cap thing has only exacerbated the situation (if I don’t hit the first shot or two I’ve got lots more?). I also don’t understand “why” a cop would be so lacksidasical about shooting skills (and yes, I know a lot of cops never fire their weapon except in practice their entire careers). The simple fact is they very well MAY, at any time, be forced to use their weapon to defend the public or even their own lives. In such a situation why someone would not want to be extremely skilled in the use of their pistol is beyond me. Familiarity breeds contempt? I dunno. I know I want to be able to hit anything I shoot at and I most assuredly will never intentionally get in a situation where I may need to defend myself. Grandson is a deputy sheriff, been working a bit over fours years in law enforcement. He is on swat team and even they only shoot every six months😳. He and a handful of his buddies built themselves a range on a piece of ground one of the guys own just so they could shoot more and improve their skill sets because they all want to go home at the end of the shift.
 
Well said. IMHO shooting requirements for those charged with protecting society and dealing with the two legged predators out there should be Extremely demanding. When I see reports of LEO’s (or worse, multiple LEO’s) expending dozens of rounds in a shootout with some thug I cringe (all those misses HAD to go somewhere). I really think the whole hi cap thing has only exacerbated the situation (if I don’t hit the first shot or two I’ve got lots more?). I also don’t understand “why” a cop would be so lacksidasical about shooting skills (and yes, I know a lot of cops never fire their weapon except in practice their entire careers). The simple fact is they very well MAY, at any time, be forced to use their weapon to defend the public or even their own lives. In such a situation why someone would not want to be extremely skilled in the use of their pistol is beyond me. Familiarity breeds contempt? I dunno. I know I want to be able to hit anything I shoot at and I most assuredly will never intentionally get in a situation where I may need to defend myself. Grandson is a deputy sheriff, been working a bit over fours years in law enforcement. He is on swat team and even they only shoot every six months😳. He and a handful of his buddies built themselves a range on a piece of ground one of the guys own just so they could shoot more and improve their skill sets because they all want to go home at the end of the shift.
To use an example from Darryl Bolke if someone was using a professional guide they have to provide they can make a heart and lung shot to ethically put down game of the PH won’t take them. But here we are sending cops out with minimum standards with outer 8 ring hits that wouldn’t be that heart long getting full value points for their “awesome qual score”

And then we wonder why we have mag dumps and the perp hardly hit!

And as far as multiple LEOs shooting there is something to the phenomena of sympathy fore. Where an Officer shoots just because another one is. A prime example of that is the Acorn cop mag dumping into the police cruiser then his partner had absolutely zero target identified or if it was even justified and mag dumped in the direction of the vehicle.

Why we can’t have nice things!

 
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To use an example from Darryl Bolke if someone was using a professional guide they have to provide they can make a heart and lung shot to ethically put down game of the PH won’t take them. But here we are sending cops out with minimum standards with outer 8 ring hits that wouldn’t be that heart long getting full value points for their “awesome qual score”

And then we wonder why we have mag dumps and the perp hardly hit!

And as far as multiple LEOs shooting there is something to the phenomena of sympathy fore. Where an Officer shoots just because another one is. A prime example of that is the Acorn cop mag dumping into the police cruiser then his partner had absolutely zero target identified or if it was even justified and mag dumped in the direction of the vehicle.

Why we can’t have nice things!

At least his aim was so atrocious he didn't kill anyone.

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I am retired from the Feds and was an instructor and on a SORT team and trainer thwre, I also am a Deputy for a school system and a state LE academy Instructor.

No matter where it always seems to be around an 10% 80% 10% breakdown on firearms proficiency.

Top 10% shoot a lot and seek out other than agency training on their own time and dime like Rangemaster, Gunsite and national level trainers

80% while some in that crowd are near the top the majority and average with a lot barely qualifying each year by 10-15 points or less and are the ones that quip “good enough til next year”

And the bottom 10% is who gets agencies to dumb down and ease requirements that has become “no cop left behind” era

The majority of the 80% and all of the bottom 10% only touch their gun to holster it and only shokt it at qualification day!

And last time I assisted at the academy it seems the days of someone failing the academy because they can’t qualify are gone as the powers that run it have them come back for remedial!

If I had my way, I would do away with the huge B27 sized targets that have a huge unrealistic area where they get full value credit for hits that if those were on a normal human would be a graze of the side. Move the X ring up to the heart/Aorta region.

I would require them to shoot the Bakersfield Qual every 2 weeks and alternate with a 5 yard roundup and assessment drill all on B8’s and require an 80 or they drive a desk until they oss.

On a lighter note I know Indianapolis PD if a LEO fails they have a reboot with their Sgt if they fail that a reshoot with their LT if a fail thwre they are pulled from the street without pay and they schedule whem they want a remedial class to get our and if the don’t pass them discipline is started as well as termination proceedings

So while a few agencies handle it most are making it so easy it’s why we see body came video of shootings turn into abortions!

Usually if it goes more tjan 4-7 rounds it’s a mag dunp with maybe a non vital ankle or elbow hit and a lot of walls, windows buildings or vehicles shewed up!
lot of agencies have to make it easier for “special” officers on qual!
 
Respectfully you are one person and one other person that is mad makes 2. They DON’T care!

Simply boycotting them won’t change so uiu and a couple other cats don’t buy a Sig. it makes no dent. You will never get an across the board uprising of consumers.

Most of the folks griping aren’t brand loyal to Sig’s anyway and they aren’t hammer fired guys so a Sig 22x or 1911 isn’t happening

Departments are still buying 320’s Texas is the latests one and rumor last time I taught at the Academy Indiana State was dumping the 227 45 acp for 320’s with Romeo RDS

We shall see!

Ah yes, the SIG P320 — the only pistol where you don't pull the trigger, you just politely insult it and wait. Before the 2017 "totally-not-an-admission-of-guilt" upgrade, this thing could fire when dropped, sneezed on, or looked at funny. Want proof? Independent testers (The Truth About Guns, Omaha Outdoors, Vickers Tactical) straight-up smacked the back of the slide with a hammer and made it go boom. But don’t worry — SIG said that was all “normal.”
Omaha Outdoors:
Truth About Guns:

Then came the “voluntary upgrade,” which added a lighter trigger, internal striker safety, and a trigger tab… just for fun, not because the thing was launching bullets without permission or anything. Sure, Jan.

Meanwhile, in the real world:
  • Over 100 unintentional discharge incidents have been reported (Wikipedia, sourced from court records),
  • Dozens of officers injured,
  • Departments like Dallas PD, Milwaukee PD, and Philly's SEPTA have pulled the P320 entirely, and
  • There are active lawsuits claiming post-upgrade P320s still go off like a firecracker in a microwave.
    The Reload: Ongoing lawsuits
    Washington Post coverage
But wait — enter GBRS Group, the bearded knights of “It’s totally your fault.” They’re on YouTube assuring us that everything’s fine, it’s just “negligent handling.” Apparently, dozens of trained LEOs all collectively forgot how to holster a gun on the same platform. Coincidence? Or just really bad vibes?

Let’s be clear: I’m not saying every P320 is a hand grenade with a badge complex. But if your duty weapon has a body count without ever pulling the trigger, maybe — just maybe — it deserves more than a slick marketing video and a sticker that says “upgraded.”

Use it, love it, whatever — just don’t drop it, breathe on it, or let it feel insecure.
 
My favorite is the argument that the uncommanded discharges can’t be repeated. The only way to try and repeat one would be to have someone who experienced a P320 uncommanded discharge, using same gun, completely recreate every singe movement from the time they first possessed the subject P320, to include number of times bumping gun, each time in same exact position, same exact holstering/unholsterings, loading/unloadings, etc. It has to be all exactly duplicated movements for the same duration as initial possession of said P320 to uncommanded discharge.

Yes, I know it’s absurd. So is the argument that there have been no recreations of the uncommanded discharges (likely caused by micro vibrations over use time of the gun which could only be recreated as above).

I do sincerely hope everyone that loves them (P320) enjoys them and never has an incident.
 
Please link me to a video showing this gun firing without being touched.
I want to see that video too. I have seen firsthand, firings ("accidental") at ranges throughout the years - ALWAYS some person with hands on firearm, never with firearm sitting alone on a bench deciding to go off by itself.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFT-g-9CPmg

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/a2kBJwWT--Y

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/a2kBJwWT--Y

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/S8S-YCVQPek
 
Not watching all those ( again) but I can tell you that I've seen several of them and they definitely didn't show a gun firing on it's own.

Every video I posted clearly shows the gun going off without the trigger being touched. In most cases, it's still in the holster. The cop bending over. The cop getting into/out of his cruiser. The cop putting a box on the front seat of the car. The cop handing someone paperwork. None of those guns are being touched.

I know what you meant by "on it's own" but in the gun world, a gun going off without the trigger being pulled IS a gun going off on it's own. It is the equivalent of it sitting on a table, going off without being touched.

If you really can't understand why that is, then you have ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS owning, carrying, or using firearms.

Seriously.
 
Not watching all those ( again) but I can tell you that I've seen several of them and they definitely didn't show a gun firing on it's own.

Do me a favor, brother. Take your Sig P320 into your garage. Put your ears & eyes on. Close the door. Pull a bullet out of it's case, dump the powder, chamber it, tap the back of it with a mallet. See for yourself FFS.
 
Every video I posted clearly shows the gun going off without the trigger being touched. In most cases, it's still in the holster. The cop bending over. The cop getting into/out of his cruiser. The cop putting a box on the front seat of the car. The cop handing someone paperwork. None of those guns are being touched.

I know what you meant by "on it's own" but in the gun world, a gun going off without the trigger being pulled IS a gun going off on it's own. It is the equivalent of it sitting on a table, going off without being touched.

If you really can't understand why that is, then you have ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS owning, carrying, or using firearms.

Seriously.
Yeah that's BS. Dude's holstering the weapon ( I've seen those videos) it absolutely doesn't "Clearly show the gun going off with nothing engaging the trigger."

You also have no clue what I have business owning, carrying or using, sport. ;) And making that assessment ( the same assessment several others here, including some LEO and Military, made after seeing at least two of those videos,) sure AF has no relation to what you think qualifies anyone to do anything.

And to answer that nagging question that's been in the back of your brain, yes, a lot of people are getting sick of you posting shite about the 320. And posting in general frankly.
 
Yeah that's BS. Dude's holstering the weapon ( I've seen those videos) it absolutely doesn't "Clearly show the gun going off with nothing engaging the trigger."
Alright, so you're simply in total denial, then. Gotcha.
You also have no clue what I have business owning, carrying or using, sport. ;) And making that assessment ( the same assessment several others here, including some LEO and Military, made after seeing at least two of those videos,) sure AF has no relation to what you think qualifies anyone to do anything.
It's about your attitude. If you take safety this lightly, you're not responsible enough to own firearms. Sorry, not sorry.
And to answer that nagging question that's been in the back of your brain, yes, a lot of people are getting sick of you posting shite about the 320. And posting in general frankly.
Would you like an instructional video on where to find the ignore button? I'll be happy to post one for you and help you out! (Bonus: It's free!)

I'm frankly tired of Sig fanboys defending this garbage model. I'm also sick of these damn guns going off, damaging our cause. You think the left won't use this against us? Last UD was at a SCHOOL.

A. SCHOOL.

WAKE UP, BOB.
 
Alright, so you're simply in total denial, then. Gotcha.

It's about your attitude. If you take safety this lightly, you're not responsible to own firearms. Sorry, not sorry.

Would you like an instructional video on where to find the ignore button? I'll be happy to post one for you and help you out.

I'm frankly tired of Sig fanboys defending this garbage model. I'm also sick of these damn guns going off, damaging our cause. You think the left won't use this against us? Last UD was at a SCHOOL.

A. SCHOOL.

WAKE UP, BOB.
I own zero Sigs. Never owned a Sig. Still haven't seen a video that shows the gun firing without something making it fire. Be that a F'ing mallet ( who the F would do that ?) or something snagging the trigger on holstering or unholstering.

My opinion is this. The 320 had issues and it hurt some people. Sig fixed those issues but $$$$$$ filled people's hearts and plausible deniability filled many LE dept. heads hearts after their undertrained ( largely female, I hate to say) officers started having the F'ing things go off in their purses. Now the whole thing is being driven by lawyers and people, as you say, who have no business owning or carrying firearms.
 
I own zero Sigs. Never owned a Sig. Still haven't seen a video that shows the gun firing without something making it fire. Be that a F'ing mallet ( who the F would do that ?) or something snagging the trigger on holstering or unholstering.

My opinion is this. The 320 had issues and it hurt some people. Sig fixed those issues but $$$$$$ filled people's hearts and plausible deniability filled many LE dept. heads hearts after their undertrained ( largely female, I hate to say) officers starting having the F'ing things go off in their purses. Now the whole thing is being driven by lawyers and people, as you say, who have no business owning or carrying firearms.
Please, go back and watch at least the Inside Edition one. Here are the timestamps to look for: 0:49, 0:53, 1:04, 2:13

And then watch this video from THREE DAYS AGO:

Timestamp for that video is 0:50
 
Law enforcement agencies and many gun ranges and training facilities around the country have banned the P320. There seems to be more AD with the P320 while in the holster (not being holstered or drawn) than other comparable pistols. I know of members on other forums who haven't sued SIG and paid their own money to buy a P320 who reported that their anecdotal example was about to fire out of battery.

Here's my conclusion:

#1: I don't like how SIG handled the whole drop safety debacle. I felt like they didn't have any ethics or integrity. They seemed to remind me of how vehicle manufacturers used to knowingly be tight-lipped about serious safety issues because their bottom line was more important than the safety of their customers.

#2: This ties into #1. The upper management including CEO of SIG were involved in (with some being actually convicted of) knowingly violating the law by secretly and sneakily smuggling their firearms (illegal arm sales) to countries that were involved in human rights and other abuses.

Again, this is more proof that if there was a problem with the P320 (not saying there is or isn't), they'd likely put profit above our and our family's well-being. They'd lie, hide, and lie some more about it. I can't support a company like that, but it seems many other gun owners have no qualms about it.

#3: It's a fact that SIG has quietly made changes to several internal components. I've seen where others have posted pictures of post-drop safety manufactured pistols where certain changes have been made with no explanation as to why. This is something most manufacturers also do, but it's cause for alarm under the circumstances of SIG's upper management's reputation. It also adds more questions to if we are really comparing apples to apples between the P320s that allegedly are firing without the trigger being pulled by the carrier vs. the owners who state their examples never had an issue.

#4: The P320 is a cobbled-together Frankenstein design that wasn't built from the ground up to be a striker-fired platform. It was an afterthought to save money on production costs by utilizing parts, grip frames, molds, etc. of an already existing product. They needed something to complete for the Army contract, and they needed it fast.

#5: While the P320 won the military trials, it didn't do so by outperforming the other entrants. It actually performed worse; the testing was stopped prematurely, and SIG basically won because they bid so low for a gun, ammo, and maintenance contract.

#6: I don't need to get down into the weeds about whether it's a safe platform or not because it's a moot point. The fact is there are far too many older, less expensive, well-vetted sticker-fired options on the market with a better track record, both from how the company is managed to the platform's reputation. IMHO, it makes no logical sense, and it's foolish to even roll the dice.

#7: I can't think of a reason why any person of sound mind would go the P320 route when there's a seemingly endless amount of less controversial alternatives. I take that back. The only reasons some L.E. and military still utilize the P320 is because of monetary gains. The only reason most civilians are still buying and carrying the P320 is because the military and L.E. issue them, and because they're resting on SIG's laurels... That's the only thing that makes logical sense to me.

#8: I don't know or care if the P320 is safe or not. I just know I'll NEVER carry or will spend hundreds of my dollars to find out of it is or isn't.
 
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Law enforcement agencies and many gun ranges and training facilities around the country have banned the P320. There seems to be more AD with the P320 while in the holster (not being holstered or drawn) than other comparable pistols. I know of members on other forums who haven't sued SIG and paid their own money to buy a P320 who reported that their anecdotal example was about to fire out of battery.

Here's my conclusion:

#1: I don't like how SIG handled the whole drop safety debacle. I felt like they didn't have any ethics or integrity. They seemed to remind me of how vehicle manufacturers used to knowingly be tight-lipped about serious safety issues because their bottom line was more important than the safety of their customers.

#2: This ties into #1. The upper management including CEO of SIG were involved in (with some being actually convicted of) knowingly violating the law by secretly and sneakily smuggling their firearms (illegal arm sales) to countries that were involved in human rights and other abuses.

Again, this is more proof that if there was a problem with the P320 (not saying there is or isn't), they'd likely put profit above our and our family's well-being. They'd lie, hide, and lie some more about it. I can't support a company like that, but it seems many other gun owners have no qualms about it.

#3: It's a fact that SIG has quietly made changes to several internal components. I've seen where others have posted pictures of post-drop safety manufactured pistols where certain changes have been made with no explanation as to why. This is something most manufacturers also do, but it's cause for alarm under the circumstances of SIG's upper management's reputation. It also adds more questions to if we are really comparing apples to apples between the P320s that allegedly are firing without the trigger being pulled by the carrier vs. the owners who state their examples never had an issue.

#4: The P320 is a cobbled-together Frankenstein design that wasn't built from the ground up to be a striker-fired platform. It was an afterthought to save money on production costs by utilizing parts, grip frames, molds, etc. of an already existing product. They needed something to complete for the Army contract, and they needed it fast.

#5: While the P320 won the military trials, it didn't do so by outperforming the other entrants. It actually performed worse; the testing was stopped prematurely, and SIG basically won because they bid so low for a gun, ammo, and maintenance contract.

#6: I don't need to get down into the weeds about whether it's a safe platform or not because it's a moot point. The fact is there are far too many older, less expensive, well-vetted sticker-fired options on the market with a better track record, both from how the company is managed to the platform's reputation. IMHO, it makes no logical sense, and it's foolish to even roll the dice.

#7: I can't think of a reason why any person of sound mind would go the P320 route when there's a seemingly endless amount of less controversial alternatives. I take that back. The only reasons some L.E. and military still utilize the P320 is because of monetary gains. The only reason most civilians are still buying and carrying the P320 is because the military and L.E. issue them, and because they're resting on SIG's laurels...
Agree on all points. Imagine being a cop on a department still uses the P320? I'd probably put in for FMLA or a lateral transfer.
 
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