Progress on Berry's plated bullets reloads

[RedGoat]

Nope. I haven't given up on my quest to make the Berry's 38/357 125 grain flat point plated bullets shoot well. I somehow managed to let almost the the entire month of May slip by without working on it, but I'm back at it again.

What I'm finding (I think, more testing is needed) is that these slugs want to be seated DEEP into the case. I am now seating them at a COAL of 1.340" in 38 Special cases trimmed METICULOUSLY to 1.145" +/- .001" . Cases are measured and trimmed only AFTER resizing and flaring case mouth. The reason for taking so much care is that the 1.340" COAL puts entire shank of the bullet inside the case with the bullet shoulder (where the shank bearing surface meets the ogive) just a smidge below the case mouth. Once the case is charged, primed and bullet is seated, I apply a normal roll crimp OVER that shoulder. When doing this, beware that the effect of the roll crimp over the bullet shoulder is that the bullet is nudged a bit deeper by the crimping action by about .002" to .004", so COAL after crimping is 1.336" to 1.338".

Of course, moving the bullet seating depth from a COAL of 1.450" all the way down to 1.340" is certainly a significant reduction in case volume and a corresponding increase in load density. Thus, it calls for re-testing my charge ladder. I have done so with one powder now, Hodgdon's TiteGroup. I've shot the entire span of the 38 Special START load given by Hodgdons all the way up to their peak 38 Special +P charge (for a 125 grain bullet). I use .2 grain increments between each charge weight "ladder rung". I'm testing right now only in a singe revolver, a Ruger Blackhawk with a 6 1/2" barrel. Velocities range all the way from about 700 fps at the bottom level up to just a shade over 1000 fps at the peak 38 +P charge weight. Primers look good throughout the range, the fired cases extract from the cylinder charge holes smoothly, and the cases do not show much in the way of looking "smoked up" (which says the cases are obturating very well).

But here's the good part: Extreme velocity spread up and down the entire spectrum of charge weights plummeted from the completely unacceptable 150 - 200 fps level down (with a 1.450" COAL) to 50 - 60 fps (with a 1.340" COAL and substantial roll crimp), which is a shade less than my favored factory range ammo exhibits. Ogg very happy now.

I'm now curious if the reduced case capacity (from deeper bullet seating) is the main factor in the improved ES values, or if it is only the increased "grip" the cases have on the bullets with the deeper seating. I might run another ladder test with the bullet seating depth set to give a COAL of 1.390" or even 1.400" and a light taper crimp to see if the ES values stay low, or if they start to climb again.

 

[Condition1]

The shorter you make the cartridge the further the bullet has to jump before it engages the forcing cone and then the rifling which means the projectile has more time to become crooked. Or it could be your handgun won’t shoot the Berry bullets well. The old Marlin micro grove barrels would not shoot cast bullets with any kind of accuracy. That was because the bullet was plowing through the rifling and not getting enough spin on the projectile to stabilize it. You can slug your barrel to see if it’s on the larger size. Berry bullets is pure lead with a cooper plating. So I’m wondering if your bullet is plowing through the rifling. Good luck hope this helps you figure it out.

 

[Pitdogg2]

When using the Berry's or Rainier, you need to treat them like straight lead bullets. You need a good crimp, that being said, a little too much will tear off or into the copper plating, It's much thinner, say like copper foil. Unlike say a jacketed bullet.
I used the Rainier 115 grain HP 9mm bullet with great success using 4.2 grains Bullseye powder in a Remington+p+ case.

 

[RedGoat]

The shorter you make the cartridge the further the bullet has to jump before it engages the forcing cone and then the rifling which means the projectile has more time to become crooked. Or it could be your handgun won’t shoot the Berry bullets well. The old Marlin micro grove barrels would not shoot cast bullets with any kind of accuracy. That was because the bullet was plowing through the rifling and not getting enough spin on the projectile to stabilize it. You can slug your barrel to see if it’s on the larger size. Berry bullets is pure lead with a cooper plating. So I’m wondering if your bullet is plowing through the rifling. Good luck hope this helps you figure it out.

@Condition1, thank you for your input. I appreciate it and I can use all the help I can get! LOL.

Shooting multiple guns (more than a few). It's not the gun(s). Same wild ES in all of them (in initial tests). And they're 357 magnum revolvers, so the 38 special cartridges are already making quite a jump. Another hundredth of an inch or even one tenth of an inch one way or another will matter. Think "full wadcutter". They make a far greater jump, even in a 38 Special cylinder, and yet they purportedly yield quite satisfactory accuracy. Otherwise, the experienced bullseye shooters would have abandoned them.

As I stated in my original post, getting that bullet deeper into the case where I can put a good roll crimp over the shoulder has given me the best results so far, and the ES numbers are now better than the factory ammo I've been shooting.

I'm keenly aware that the Berry's bullets are mostly pure lead with a thin copper plating that one must take care not to rupture. That's why I started off initially trying to get by with a taper crimp.

Since I posted above, I've had a little more time to analyze my chrono data from the last two range trips and it reveals that even with the bullet shoved much deeper into the case, the roll crimp outperforms a taper crimp. Significantly and consistently. So roll crimp it will be.

My next trip to the range will encompass testing of ammo with an "in between" seating depth (deeper than a 1.450" COAL, but not all the way to the radical 1.380" or 1.340" COAL. Probably around 1.400" COAL. And it will feature a VERY light roll crimp so as to not fracture that thin copper plating nor "rumple" cartridge case (easily done when roll crimping with no cannelure).

More to come once I get the loading and shooting done.

 

[RedGoat]

When using the Berry's or Rainier, you need to treat them like straight lead bullets. You need a good crimp, that being said, a little too much will tear off or into the copper plating, It's much thinner, say like copper foil. Unlike say a jacketed bullet.
I used the Rainier 115 grain HP 9mm bullet with great success using 4.2 grains Bullseye powder in a Remington+p+ case.

@Pitdogg2: Thanks for the reminder about plated bullets. The thin plating is part of what has made this project challenging (I think) from the outset. Yes, they need a crimp. No, they don't have a crimp groove... What's a reloader to do? It's sorta like trying to walk across an immaculate lawn wet with morning dew and not leave a footprint.

No Alliant powders allowed in this testing. Part of my stated goals for this project is to find a suitable replacement for Bullseye and Unique. Hodgdon's TiteGroup is starting to look very promising in that respect.

With regard to crimping, I've already tried a "light" taper crimp, a "medium" taper crimp, and a "heavy" taper crimp. I applied the crimps to bullets in cases with no powder and no primer (essentially a dummy round) and then turned around and pulled the bullets to see how much of an indentation each level of crimp was putting into the bullets. All left a mark and none "broke the skin" of the copper plating. I then loaded up live rounds with each crimp level and ran them over the chronograph. The extreme spread values were 150 FPS up to over 200 FPS. Very unsatisfactory. This was with a 1.450" COAL in 38 special cases trimmed to EXACTLY 1.145" + / - .001".

ONLY after I went to the 1.380" COAL seating depth did the taper crimp "work", but the performance yielded by a roll crimp at that seating depth consistently exceeded that of the taper crimps.

 

[Pitdogg2]

My learning has always been
Taper crimp, semi-auto
Roll crimp, revolver.

 

[RedGoat]

My learning has always been
Taper crimp, semi-auto
Roll crimp, revolver.

Likewise.

 

[RedGoat]

@Condition1, thank you for your input. I appreciate it and I can use all the help I can get! LOL.

Shooting multiple guns (more than a few). It's not the gun(s). Same wild ES in all of them (in initial tests). And they're 357 magnum revolvers, so the 38 special cartridges are already making quite a jump. Another hundredth of an inch or even one tenth of an inch one way or another will matter. Think "full wadcutter". They make a far greater jump, even in a 38 Special cylinder, and yet they purportedly yield quite satisfactory accuracy. Otherwise, the experienced bullseye shooters would have abandoned them.

As I stated in my original post, getting that bullet deeper into the case where I can put a good roll crimp over the shoulder has given me the best results so far, and the ES numbers are now better than the factory ammo I've been shooting.

I'm keenly aware that the Berry's bullets are mostly pure lead with a thin copper plating that one must take care not to rupture. That's why I started off initially trying to get by with a taper crimp.

Since I posted above, I've had a little more time to analyze my chrono data from the last two range trips and it reveals that even with the bullet shoved much deeper into the case, the roll crimp outperforms a taper crimp. Significantly and consistently. So roll crimp it will be.

My next trip to the range will encompass testing of ammo with an "in between" seating depth (deeper than a 1.450" COAL, but not all the way to the radical 1.380" or 1.340" COAL. Probably around 1.400" COAL. And it will feature a VERY light roll crimp so as to not fracture that thin copper plating nor "rumple" cartridge case (easily done when roll crimping with no cannelure).

More to come once I get the loading and shooting done.

[UPDATE] I've made the range trip and shot the entire TiteGroup load ladder (as given by Hodgdon's, ranging from 38 Special START up to 38 Special +P MAXIMUM in .2 grain increments) with the Berry's 125 gr plated bullets seated to 1.410" COAL, and a light roll crimp. I seated a bullet into a dummy round and crimped it, then pulled the bullet to examine it for any damage and to make certain that the roll crimp did not "break the skin" of the plating. The crimp put a barely-visible indentation into the bullet, about .001" deep as best as I could measure with the thinnest blade portion of my calipers. The roll crimp had a "grip" on the bullet but did not damage the plating.

Range results: In the bottom half of the load ladder, the extreme spread values opened back up to unacceptable levels (over 100 fps). As the powder charge weight transitioned into the top half of the load ladder, the velocity extreme spread values decreased to below 100 fps, down to about 60 fps at the very top +P level charges, but still not acceptable (to me).

[SUMMARY] At a bit over 300 bullets expended, I think that I'm about done testing with the Berry's 125gr plated bullets / Hodgdon's TiteGroup combo. I've shot a 10 increment load ladder three times now using three different COALs: 1.450" (initial testing), 1.410" (third and final test), and 1.380" (second test). I also shot one test with ONLY the lowest charge of TiteGroup and the bullets seated to 1.340" COAL (the "shoulder" of the bullet just a hair below the case mouth of a case trimmed to 1.145" +/- .001") and a VERY FIRM roll crimp OVER the "shoulder" of the bullet.

Here are my lessons learned / conclusions:
1. The Berry's bullets with NO crimp cannelure are very "slick" and difficult to seat / crimp in a manner which provides a secure grip on them. The only effective combinations that I found was the 1.380" COAL with either a FIRM taper crimp or a VERY FIRM roll crimp. This puts the mouth of a 1.145" case just a hair BELOW the bullet "shoulder", and allows for a FIRM crimp. The roll crimp demonstrably outperforms a taper crimp with a 1.380" COAL.

2. The VERY BEST performance I observed was with a 1.340" COAL and the case mouth roll crimped OVER the bullet shoulder HARD. I tested the bottom two charges on the load ladder with this seating depth. Out of a 6 1/2" barrel I had velocities of 690 fps up to 730 fps, and extreme velocity spreads below 40 fps. These are "powder puff" loads and a pleasure to shoot from an L or N frame S&W or from a Ruger Blackhawk (my "test" gun). They are also tame enough to shoot in volume from an S&W Airweight snubbie.

The START level charges of TiteGroup combined with a 1.340" COAL / heavy roll crimp achieves my MAIN goals of a) Replace Bullseye / Unique with a readily available powder such as TiteGroup (I don't care how much Bullseye or Unique YOU might have stockpiled. My criteria is that the powder must be CURRENTLY READILY AVAILABLE). b) Find a load combination for the Berry's plated no-cannelure bullets so that they provide consistent performance. c) Identify one or more "powder puff" loads for practice / plinking / informal target shooting.

From the perspective of meeting my three main criteria, this project has been fun and a success. Like Thomas Edison, I found a whole bunch of combinations which did NOT work well. But I also found one which works like a charm.

I don't plan to shoot the "top half" of the TiteGroup load ladder with the Berry's bullets seated all the way in to a 1.340" COAL. I did not see any pressure signs when I went to the "top" with a 1.380" seating depth, but I DO note that pressures (judging by velocity yielded) is definitely increasing as seating depth is increased. TANSTAFL. Reaching PEAK velocities with the plated bullets is NOT one of my goals. I already have the chronograph data for the entire load ladder with three different seating depths, so I don't really feel the need to reach the top of the load ladder with the 1.340" COAL. I believe that I can safely replicate the velocity levels of factory "range" ammo (Winchester white box OR Remington/UMC) with the 1.340" seating depth and I might do that, but I have no need or desire for +P level velocities using the plated bullets.

[FUTURE EFFORTS]
1. Load a big batch of these up and have a "blast" shooting them.
2. Using the 1.340" seating depth / HEAVY roll crimp / lowest charge weights formula, try several other likely powders out to see if any others work as well as TiteGroup. Having options is a Good Thing.
3. Experiment with some other brands of plated bullets in the 125gr weight range. Having MORE options is a Good Thing.

 

[Biggfoot44]

So , what's your expander diameter ? Aka neck I.D. after sizing and expanding?

Since you're getter less worse results with roll crimp over " shoulder " , that's pointing to more initial neck tension producing more consistent ignition.

Crimp per se is just one part of the equation. The interference fit between bullet O.D. and case I.D. is bigger factor . Polishing 0.001 off of the expander might well make the difference.

( Similar approach to magnum revolver loading, with full case of slow , hard to ignite powder .)

Tip - Get an extra expander, only costs a couple $ , if customer service doesn't just send one gratis . Heck , if you have multiple die sets from same mfg , use micrometer to measure expander from 9mm or .38 Super .

 

[RedGoat]

@Biggfoot44 -- Thanks for your input. You have some good suggestions that I think I'll act on.

So , what's your expander diameter ? Aka neck I.D. after sizing and expanding?

I'm using an RCBS 38/357 die set. The expander plug OD is .355" in that set. My 9mm die set expander plug OD is .353", but the expander plug "reach" into the case is much shallower that the 38/357 plug, by about half.

Case ID (measured with Class ZZ Minus pin gages) after expanding with my RCBS 38/357 expander plug runs either .354" or .355", depending on whichever case I pick at random. I'm kind of surprised that the brass doesn't display as much springback tendency as one might expect. I expected AT LEAST another thousandth. Brass is once and twice fired cases from my pile of Winchester white box range ammo.

The plated bullets measure .357" OD. All that I've checked (about 25-30 of the bullets at random) consistently yield that diameter with my calipers. I have a Starret 1" micrometer, but it is in storage, so I can't get a more accurate reading right now.

Since you're getter less worse results with roll crimp over " shoulder " , that's pointing to more initial neck tension producing more consistent ignition.

I like the way that you're thinking on this. I might point out that the results of deep seating and heavy roll crimp over the shoulder are FAR better than "less worse." The velocity extreme spread dropped DRASTICALLY with that combination.

Crimp per se is just one part of the equation. The interference fit between bullet O.D. and case I.D. is bigger factor . Polishing 0.001 off of the expander might well make the difference.

I have an "extra" RCBS 38/357 die set. I might just haul off and try what you suggest ("turning down" the plug OD) using the expander plug from that extra set as my sacrificial donor/victim. I might try the 9mm plug first, but since it does not reach as deep into the case as the 38/357 plug, the bullet will have to be its own "expander" for the last bit of its seating depth, assuming a COAL of 1.400 or less (shorter COAL = deeper bullet seating, requiring a deeper expander reach).

( Similar approach to magnum revolver loading, with full case of slow , hard to ignite powder .)

Yeah, for certain. After running my load ladder test three times with various seating depths and crimp methods, the ONE thing that is CERTAIN at this point is that the bullet (with most of the combinations I've tried) is uncorking from the case too "easily" to provide a consistent initial burn. It needs much more initial resistance than it is getting with most of the combinations I've tried.

Tip - Get an extra expander, only costs a couple $ , if customer service doesn't just send one gratis . Heck , if you have multiple die sets from same mfg , use micrometer to measure expander from 9mm or .38 Super .

Excellent thought. I've already used my RCBS 9mm seating die (less the seating plug) to apply a taper crimp. I'll check out the 9mm expander plug. It might just be what the doctor ordered.

 

[RedGoat]

@Biggfoot44 -- Thanks for your input. You have some good suggestions that I think I'll act on.


I'm using an RCBS 38/357 die set. The expander plug OD is .355" in that set. My 9mm die set expander plug OD is .353", but the expander plug "reach" into the case is much shallower that the 38/357 plug, by about half.

Case ID (measured with Class ZZ Minus pin gages) after expanding with my RCBS 38/357 expander plug runs either .354" or .355", depending on whichever case I pick at random. I'm kind of surprised that the brass doesn't display as much springback tendency as one might expect. I expected AT LEAST another thousandth. Brass is once and twice fired cases from my pile of Winchester white box range ammo.

The plated bullets measure .357" OD. All that I've checked (about 25-30 of the bullets at random) consistently yield that diameter with my calipers. I have a Starret 1" micrometer, but it is in storage, so I can't get a more accurate reading right now.

I like the way that you're thinking on this. I might point out that the results of deep seating and heavy roll crimp over the shoulder are FAR better than "less worse." The velocity extreme spread dropped DRASTICALLY with that combination.

I have an "extra" RCBS 38/357 die set. I might just haul off and try what you suggest ("turning down" the plug OD) using the expander plug from that extra set as my sacrificial donor/victim. I might try the 9mm plug first, but since it does not reach as deep into the case as the 38/357 plug, the bullet will have to be its own "expander" for the last bit of its seating depth, assuming a COAL of 1.400 or less (shorter COAL = deeper bullet seating, requiring a deeper expander reach).

Yeah, for certain. After running my load ladder test three times with various seating depths and crimp methods, the ONE thing that is CERTAIN at this point is that the bullet (with most of the combinations I've tried) is uncorking from the case too "easily" to provide a consistent initial burn. It needs much more initial resistance than it is getting with most of the combinations I've tried.

Excellent thought. I've already used my RCBS 9mm seating die (less the seating plug) to apply a taper crimp. I'll check out the 9mm expander plug. It might just be what the doctor ordered.

FOLLOWUP RANGE REPORT

I assembled 90 rounds using the 9mm expander from my RCBS 9x19 die set. The ID of the case necks were about .001" smaller in the ID dimension as well as OD dimension than when using the 38/357 expander. I then proceeded to load all 90 rounds with the SAME identical powder charge of TiteGroup. The Berry's 125gr plated bullets were then seated to a COAL of 1.400" in cases trimmed to 1.145". I put a moderately heavy taper crimp on the first 30 rounds, a moderate roll crimp on 30 more rounds, and the last 30 rounds received a taper crimp followed by a roll crimp (Redding has a die that does this in one operation and calls it a "profile crimp" ).

Off to the range. Shoot each batch of 30 rounds with the three different crimp types and having (theoretically) a slightly tighter "grip" on the bullet due to usage of the 9x19 expander.

Results? NO JOY! ES values were unchanged and horrible, mirroring almost exactly as with the 38/357 expander. My conclusion. The issue is NOT case neck tension on the bullet. Maybe, just maybe, if ES values were "almost" where they should be (below 50 fps for any statistically valid sample), the change to the 9x19 expander might have produced a measurable difference. But not in this case.

(fired from a 6 1/2" Ruger Blackhawk)
Moderate taper crimp - Average velocity for 30 rounds = 748.6 FPS, ES=91.8 FPS
Moderate roll crimp - Average velocity for 30 rounds = 745.5 FPS, ES=227.5 FPS
Moderate taper crimp+Moderate roll crimp ("profile crimp") - Average velocity for 30 rounds = 754.6 FPS, ES=120.0 FPS

For comparison, when the bullet is seated to a COAL of 3.400" (shoulder of the bullet just a hair below case mouth) and crimped heavily over the bullet shoulder (and used standard RCBS 38/357 expander):

(fired from a 6 1/2" barrel, Ruger Blackhawk)
Heavy taper crimp - Average velocity for 12 rounds = 735.9 FPS, ES=71.5 FPS
Heavy roll crimp - Average velocity for 12 rounds= 754.5 FPS, ES=56.1 FPS

(fired from a 1 7/8" S&W Airweight)
Heavy taper crimp - Average velocity for 12 rounds = 617.3 FPS, ES=66.1 FPS
Heavy roll crimp - Average velocity for 12 rounds= 645.6 FPS, ES=53.5 FPS

My next step is to load up a hundred or so of the 3.400" COAL "roll crimped over the shoulder" loads and shoot them through several different guns to verify that the load is indeed consistent and that my stats are not just a fluke.

 

[RedGoat]

CORRECTION to the previous:

I stated,
"For comparison, when the bullet is seated to a COAL of 3.400" (shoulder of the bullet just a hair below case mouth) and crimped heavily over the bullet shoulder (and used standard RCBS 38/357 expander):"

The 3.400" value should have been 1.340". I apologize for any confusion.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Welp , without looking over your shoulder at your bench , l'm now stumped . Still scratching my head , as my experence with Berry's in .41 and .45 Colt , all easily met accuracy expectations .

(Don't recall exact groups . But that's signifigant in that if they were worse than 1.5 in or better than 1.25 in @ 25yd , it would have stood out .)

 

[RedGoat]

Welp , without looking over your shoulder at your bench , l'm now stumped . Still scratching my head , as my experence with Berry's in .41 and .45 Colt , all easily met accuracy expectations .

(Don't recall exact groups . But that's signifigant in that if they were worse than 1.5 in or better than 1.25 in @ 25yd , it would have stood out .)

I do appreciate your advice. This adventure with 38/357 Berry's 125gr is my first time reloading a plated bullet. As I stated, I have ONE load thus far that meets my goals, and now that I know how to "lock" the bullet down enough to get consistent ignition (and thus a consistent and reasonably low ES for the load), I can try to do the same for some other powders, too.

You mentioned about group sizes. I don't have a rest setup for handgun shooting, so all my "accuracy testing" is pretty much trash. I can hold to about 2" or so at 10 yards standing, two handed, and bracing a bit against the shooting bench, but my old eyes will not let me do much better than that. That's why I'm relying on what my chronograph is telling me about the ES value for a given shot string. Once I'm more confident in the loads I'm working up, I might make an effort to get to a location where I can fire my revolvers from a rest just to see what they can really do.

 

[Biggfoot44]

I do appreciate your advice. This adventure with 38/357 Berry's 125gr is my first time reloading a plated bullet. As I stated, I have ONE load thus far that meets my goals, and now that I know how to "lock" the bullet down enough to get consistent ignition (and thus a consistent and reasonably low ES for the load), I can try to do the same for some other powders, too.

I don't have a rest setup for handgun shooting,

Me neither .
Two hand , braced forearms .