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Should You Not Carry a Gun?

HayesGreener

Professional
I taught officer survival classes in the police academy for years. Situational awareness, and mental preparedness are key psychological sets for decision making. It is good to avoid using deadly force if you have a choice, but sometimes there is no other path. I taught that you need to make the decision here and now in the classroom as to whether you could use deadly force, because once hostilities commence, there is no time for Zen-like introspection. Reasonable and Necessary are always operative in deadly force decisions.

I mention this repeatedly, but it is important that you be intimately familiar with the laws regarding justifiable use of force where you are. In Florida for example, as well as a number of other states, stopping a forcible felony is one of the justifications for using deadly force; robbery is one of the enumerated forcible felonies in the statute, along with treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual. Having a clear understanding of the law removes much of the uncertainty in the decision-making process. From a foundation of knowledge, you are better prepared to make good decisions when the time comes.

Using deadly force is a personal decision where only your welfare is at risk. When others are at risk, especially if you are duty-bound, it is a question of what duty requires.

If you are familiar with John Boyd's OODA Loop (observe, orient, decide, and act), you will understand the value of operating inside your opponent's decision loop. Having the physical skills to execute quickly and accurately brings confidence, which in turn helps to reduce the likelihood of acting prematurely or in panic mode.
 
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wolfpack076

Master Class
All I can say on the matter is NO ONE knows for sure how they will react in a deadly force matter until they are actually involved in one. In 31 years as a Cop I have seen many many times when all is good so to speak and just like turning on or off a light switch it goes from nice and calm to OMG I don't want to but I may have to use deadly force here. No amount of training can prepare you for it. I tell all the Officers I teach weapons skills to and martial arts to Train for the worst and Pray for the best. I am sure Hayes in all his experience here with Law enforcement will more than likely agree. Just my two cents worth.
 

The Night Rider

Master Class
I TRY to read through all of the responses before I respond to a discussion but I'm running short on time.

The first thing that I want to address is the guy who gave up his wallet. Others have said it, we don't know the whole story. Was it a strong armed robbery? Was a weapon displayed? How close was the bad guy? We don't have any of those details and without them we really can't second guess the guy that gave up his wallet. Also, giving up his wallet worked for that guy. Can't second guess success either.

I don't know if I've told this story here before or not but I had two guys try to rob me one night on my way to work.

I walked out to my front door to go to my car to go to work. I actually just taken off my body armor and put it AND my lunch box in the front seat.

I turned around and these two guys walked around the corner of the building. As soon as they saw me they split up one on my right and one to my left.

The one on my right walked past me and turned around. The one on their left walk straight towards me and asked me if I was going fishing. I believe the intent of that question was to confuse me and have me wondering what the hell he was talking about while he got close enough to rob me.

It was about 11:30 at night so it was obviously dark. I was wearing a black uniform, a black duty belt and carrying a black gun. I also had the car door between me and the want to be robbers. I don't think they realized that I was armed until I stepped out from behind the door and put my hand on my gun.

This is the most important part of the story, when they realized that I was armed they were deterred but they weren't intimidated in the least.

I've never ran into a Street Rat who was intimidated at all by the fact that I was armed. The reason that I stress that is because it taught me that you had better be 100% committed to pulling that trigger before you draw your gun.

What I'm very specifically not saying is that you must shoot if you draw your gun but you'd better not ever pull it just to scare them away.

This is one of those write a book or say nothing topics. I mean, people have literally written books about this. It's really more than you can cover effectively in an internet post.

I've already made my main point, if you're not 100% committed leave the gun at home.

Having said that, I worked as a security guard for 15 years. I essentially spent my entire shift every night driving around town pissing off petty criminals. And I never once had to shoot anybody.

I only ever one time had to draw my gun (I also threw down on a cow one night but that was a mistake not a necessity). That one time the other guy was already shooting and as soon as he saw me he ran away.

I stopped more people who were sizing me up and deciding whether or not they could get away with attacking me by making them aware that I was aware of them and was willing to fight than I ever had actual need of a gun.

So I said all that to say that paying attention to what's going on around you a lot of times will serve you better than being armed.
 
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I taught officer survival classes in the police academy for years. Situational awareness, and mental preparedness are key psychological sets for decision making. It is good to avoid using deadly force if you have a choice, but sometimes there is no other path. I taught that you need to make the decision here and now in the classroom as to whether you could use deadly force, because once hostilities commence, there is no time for Zen-like introspection. Reasonable and Necessary are always operative in deadly force decisions.

I mention this repeatedly, but it is important that you be intimately familiar with the laws regarding justifiable use of force where you are. In Florida for example, as well as a number of other states, stopping a forcible felony is one of the justifications for using deadly force; robbery is one of the enumerated forcible felonies in the statute, along with treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual. Having a clear understanding of the law removes much of the uncertainty in the decision-making process. From a foundation of knowledge, you are better prepared to make good decisions when the time comes.

Using deadly force is a personal decision where only your welfare is at risk. When others are at risk, especially if you are duty-bound, it is a question of what duty requires.

If you are familiar with John Boyd's OODA Loop (observe, orient, decide, and act), you will understand the value of operating inside your opponent's decision loop. Having the physical skills to execute quickly and accurately brings confidence, which in turn helps to reduce the likelihood of acting prematurely or in panic mode.
Very, very, very well said.
 
While I understand what you're saying I have to make this comment, the Pettit family would have been better served with a locked door than a gun.
I to lived in Connecticut during the Pettit family tragedy and although you make a valid point my contention is that happened during a time when people didn’t lock their doors when they were home, in fact many people didn’t lock their doors when they left for a quick trip to the store. My parents were like that, very trusting, never concerned.
Of course that all changed when the house was broken into.
 
No….good luck with that mindset.

The fact that you immediately get confrontational…good luck with that as well.
I honestly didn’t understand what he meant by having trust issues with people that are “close” to him, I was asking myself did he mean “physically close” or not trusting even friends?
His response to a “suggestion” to having a lawyers phone number tells me he is nothing more than a very bitter person. That being said I do admit to having serious issues with an individual I know nothing about and that for no reason gets into my personal space and remember vividly during the hight of the pandemic that a guy got way to close to me while I waited in line to purchase groceries. When I say close, waayyy to close and unmasked. My response was to turn around and got very very loud telling him he needed to move away from me immediately, his response as well as someone else inline was to instantly move to another check out lane. Yes I can get loud.
 

The Night Rider

Master Class
I to lived in Connecticut during the Pettit family tragedy and although you make a valid point my contention is that happened during a time when people didn’t lock their doors when they were home, in fact many people didn’t lock their doors when they left for a quick trip to the store. My parents were like that, very trusting, never concerned.
Of course that all changed when the house was broken into.
How did not locking the door work out for them?

I understand what you're saying. When I was a kid my mother never locked the door to our house. Neither did my grandparents. It was only the grace of God that kept either of them from being burglarized or worse.
 

The Night Rider

Master Class
That being said I do admit to having serious issues with an individual I know nothing about and that for no reason gets into my personal space .

I had two complementary rules while I was working

1. If I don't know you you don't get into my personal space.

2. You CERTAINLY don’t get into my personal space or even approach me unless I can see your hands.

Both rules were situational of course but at work in the middle of the night, downtown, with no backup they were Ironclad.

I wasn't a jerk about it and I never got loud. Getting loud let's them know that you're intimidated.

" That's close enough bro. What can I do for you?"

"Do me a favor man, take your hands out of your pockets."

I didn't start using commands unless they ignored that initial request.

Not always but generally speaking if they had a weapon on them as soon as I said "hey man, keep your hands where I can see them." they'd reach for it. Not like they were trying to pull it but they try to touch it to make sure it was in place. Dead giveaway every time.

Rule 2A was you did not approach me for any reason with anything in your hands that could be used as a weapon
 
I taught officer survival classes in the police academy for years. Situational awareness, and mental preparedness are key psychological sets for decision making. It is good to avoid using deadly force if you have a choice, but sometimes there is no other path. I taught that you need to make the decision here and now in the classroom as to whether you could use deadly force, because once hostilities commence, there is no time for Zen-like introspection. Reasonable and Necessary are always operative in deadly force decisions.

I mention this repeatedly, but it is important that you be intimately familiar with the laws regarding justifiable use of force where you are. In Florida for example, as well as a number of other states, stopping a forcible felony is one of the justifications for using deadly force; robbery is one of the enumerated forcible felonies in the statute, along with treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual. Having a clear understanding of the law removes much of the uncertainty in the decision-making process. From a foundation of knowledge, you are better prepared to make good decisions when the time comes.

Using deadly force is a personal decision where only your welfare is at risk. When others are at risk, especially if you are duty-bound, it is a question of what duty requires.

If you are familiar with John Boyd's OODA Loop (observe, orient, decide, and act), you will understand the value of operating inside your opponent's decision loop. Having the physical skills to execute quickly and accurately brings confidence, which in turn helps to reduce the likelihood of acting prematurely or in panic mode.
Although I never heard of it your mention of OODA makes so much sense, I’m sure I’m not alone in how people will relive dramatic events in their lives and I often think about my situation in the grocery store parking lot when I was targeted for either a robbery or car jacking. I’ll never forget how I had noticed what to some may mean nothing in how people park and although I had already gone from concealed to open carry my arm at my side was still blocking a total view of my gun. It wasn’t until I reached the side of my truck I saw doors open and the guy from the front passenger seat getting out with a gun in his right hand pointing at the ground, before I even new it my gun had cleared the holster and the red dot planted on his chest and I was screaming make a better choice.
Fortunately there were no shots fired that day however I know if he had pointed his gun at me I would have had no choice but to defend myself with deadly force. OODA I like that.
 
How did not locking the door work out for them?

I understand what you're saying. When I was a kid my mother never locked the door to our house. Neither did my grandparents. It was only the grace of God that kept either of them from being burglarized or worse.
Ended tragically.

My cousin was friends of the Pettit family and I went with him to the memorial service with what seemed like most of Connecticut.
 

HayesGreener

Professional
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stuartv

Operator
All I want to say here is that the article title made me think the article was about whether to carry or not. Instead, the article was about whether to use what I'm carrying or not.

I didn't need another walkthrough of the basics on deciding whether to use what I'm carrying. I was interested in (from the article title) the idea that there was a useful discussion to be had about scenarios where you might be wise to not be carrying at all.

For that reason, I feel like the article just wasted my time.
 
All I want to say here is that the article title made me think the article was about whether to carry or not. Instead, the article was about whether to use what I'm carrying or not.

I didn't need another walkthrough of the basics on deciding whether to use what I'm carrying. I was interested in (from the article title) the idea that there was a useful discussion to be had about scenarios where you might be wise to not be carrying at all.

For that reason, I feel like the article just wasted my time.

That’s an actually interesting premise—are there situations where one would be better off not armed?

You have any situations where you think that would be the case?
 

stuartv

Operator
That’s an actually interesting premise—are there situations where one would be better off not armed?

You have any situations where you think that would be the case?

I don't know. I just have a gut feeling that as soon as I say "it's ALWAYS better to be carrying" someone will come up with an example where that is wrong.

And that is what I was hoping to learn about when I saw the article title and clicked to read it.
 
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