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Should You Not Carry a Gun?

I don't know. I just have a gut feeling that as soon as I say "it's ALWAYS better to be carrying" someone will come up with an example where that is wrong.

And that is what I was hoping to learn about when I saw the article title and clicked to read it.

The thing is…going by Cooper’s color code…there are times where it’s necessary to go “white”; living in constant…hyper awareness…leads to paranoia.
 

Sld1959

Professional
The thing is…going by Cooper’s color code…there are times where it’s necessary to go “white”; living in constant…hyper awareness…leads to paranoia.
Then there's always this.

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Flyboy514

Operator
Drawing and pulling the trigger solves my problem,
BUT... It may very well cause a heck of a lot of FUTURE problems as well. You might want to take Sld1959's advice and put your lawyer on speed dial. I'd advise you to cooperate with LE, but keep your mouth shut until you've hit the speed dial and got your lawyer to show up.
 

HayesGreener

Professional
From my point of view it is better to be armed than not. The likelihood that you will ever need to use the gun defensively is extremely remote. But we arm ourselves and train to become proficient against that remote possibility. If you don't carry it you do not have the option. My nightmare as retired LEO is to have violence erupt in my presence and being helpless to stop it. It is why I try to avoid places where I cannot carry it. That psychological set to not be helpless and being prepared to act I believe is what the article is all about. If you are not willing to use it you might as well leave it at home.
 

Sld1959

Professional
The thing is…going by Cooper’s color code…there are times where it’s necessary to go “white”; living in constant…hyper awareness…leads to paranoia.
Actually thinking about it, I have never carried a firearm at a wedding, or reception, church, unless asked to by clergy as part of protection, otherwise it is prohibited by law. It's also prohibited to do so at hospitals in Michigan, and Bars, and certain entertainment facilities. And where prohibited I do not do so. It is my choice not to go there if I feel this is onerous. Same with places the owners have posted and prohibited it. Thier place thier rules. Everyone will have thier feelings on this, as has been shown before, this is simply my personal belief for me.

Some will scoff and say that is stupid, but you are quite correct, there are simply times when it is not correct, for me.
 
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stuartv

Operator
From my point of view it is better to be armed than not. The likelihood that you will ever need to use the gun defensively is extremely remote. But we arm ourselves and train to become proficient against that remote possibility. If you don't carry it you do not have the option. My nightmare as retired LEO is to have violence erupt in my presence and being helpless to stop it. It is why I try to avoid places where I cannot carry it. That psychological set to not be helpless and being prepared to act I believe is what the article is all about. If you are not willing to use it you might as well leave it at home.

This sort of brings up my thoughts on the possibility of being somewhere where it would be better to not be carrying.

Please don't take this personally, as I am not asserting that I know what YOU think. But, your words give some credence to the idea that at least some people view a gun as the ONLY way to deal with violence. I mean, saying "my nightmare is that violence will erupt and I will be helpless to stop it. That is why I carry" makes it sound like the only option for dealing with violence is to use a gun.

I think it does EVERYONE a disservice to give any credibility to the suggestion that the only way one can deal with violence is with a gun.

There are a million (figuratively speaking) ways one can be prepared for many forms of violence without having a gun. Anything from hand-to-hand training of some type (Krav Maga, Karate, Judo, wrestling, boxing, etc..) to carrying pepper spray, a collapsible baton, a knife, or whatever. On and on.
 

HayesGreener

Professional
This sort of brings up my thoughts on the possibility of being somewhere where it would be better to not be carrying.

Please don't take this personally, as I am not asserting that I know what YOU think. But, your words give some credence to the idea that at least some people view a gun as the ONLY way to deal with violence. I mean, saying "my nightmare is that violence will erupt and I will be helpless to stop it. That is why I carry" makes it sound like the only option for dealing with violence is to use a gun.

I think it does EVERYONE a disservice to give any credibility to the suggestion that the only way one can deal with violence is with a gun.

There are a million (figuratively speaking) ways one can be prepared for many forms of violence without having a gun. Anything from hand-to-hand training of some type (Krav Maga, Karate, Judo, wrestling, boxing, etc..) to carrying pepper spray, a collapsible baton, a knife, or whatever. On and on.
You are correct there are many options for defense before you get to the gun. It is called the force continuum. Much depends on physucal ability and training. I taught officers the full range in defensive tactics and firearms. A confrontation may escalate only part way through the continuum or may go right to guns from the outset. We have no way of knowing how far it will go or how quickly it will get there. It is the reason officers have all that stuff on their belts and defensive tactics training-to have options. The gun is the last resort. But one thing is for certain: If there is to be a gunfight you gotta have a gun (and that means enough gun). We tend to focus on that part because, well, this is a gun forum.
 

stuartv

Operator
You are correct there are many options for defense before you get to the gun. It is called the force continuum. Much depends on physucal ability and training. I taught officers the full range in defensive tactics and firearms. A confrontation may escalate only part way through the continuum or may go right to guns from the outset. We have no way of knowing how far it will go or how quickly it will get there. It is the reason officers have all that stuff on their belts and defensive tactics training-to have options. The gun is the last resort. But one thing is for certain: If there is to be a gunfight you gotta have a gun (and that means enough gun). We tend to focus on that part because, well, this is a gun forum.

All I was trying to say is, when the question is "are there scenarios where it would be better to not have a gun" and the response is "I want to be prepared in case of violence, so I carry a gun", I think it gives the impression that you think the only response to violence is with a gun.
 
My perspective, luckily I live in Kentucky which is very gun friendly however I do see things changing with the upcoming elections, that being said if I encounter a place where I can’t carry then I won’t go there, (ever)
As far as going hands on? I’ve never been much of a fighter and as I have gotten older and recently following surgery I’m not stupid to think that I “don’t” now have a physical limitation.
For me does that mean that carrying a gun gives me cart blanch to draw and start shooting? Absolutely not!!! Except for in my home I would much rather retreat.
I carry a firearm to be able to protect myself and loved ones in a worst case scenario.
In today’s society it’s a mistake to expect or rely on someone else to protect me.
 

Bassbob

Ronin
This sort of brings up my thoughts on the possibility of being somewhere where it would be better to not be carrying.

Please don't take this personally, as I am not asserting that I know what YOU think. But, your words give some credence to the idea that at least some people view a gun as the ONLY way to deal with violence. I mean, saying "my nightmare is that violence will erupt and I will be helpless to stop it. That is why I carry" makes it sound like the only option for dealing with violence is to use a gun.

I think it does EVERYONE a disservice to give any credibility to the suggestion that the only way one can deal with violence is with a gun.

There are a million (figuratively speaking) ways one can be prepared for many forms of violence without having a gun. Anything from hand-to-hand training of some type (Krav Maga, Karate, Judo, wrestling, boxing, etc..) to carrying pepper spray, a collapsible baton, a knife, or whatever. On and on.
Not being armed significantly reduces your ability to defend against an armed attack should it be necessary. It’s like going to work on a Ford without a 10MM socket and just hoping you won’t need one. ( you will. In fact you will need every single tool in existence 😉)
Hayes isn’t suggesting a gun is the only tool you need. He is suggesting a gun is pretty much the only useful tool if a gunfight breaks out. And here’s a thing. When we were kids, teenagers, whatever, fist fights or even knife fights or fights with blunt objects were pretty much the norm. Those days are long gone. Now we have 12 year olds traveling around the hood in packs with hot, crappy Hi-Point 9MMs. So to be prepared to defend yourself but not having a gun, along with the ability and willingness to properly deploy it, is the opposite of being prepared.
 

Honorman

Operator
Given what I read this individual probably thought about the after action of taking the suspect down and decided it was worth a 100 dollars not to go through all the legal challenges that would be sure to follow. I was not there so I can't assume what his state of mind was at the time. I also do not know what his level of training and ability is. To be quite honest friends I have seen many CCW folks at the range and I have to tell that what I saw was not reassuring. I don't think people really realize just how prepared you have to be to mentally and physically engage in a gun fight. During my 22 years on a SWAT/Counter Terrorism team I fired between 4000-6000 rounds a month with just my handgun to maintain the tactical edge. When you add the other weapons systems I had to perform with you talking about a serious round count. Even with that level of training you can still have a bad range day and that's where you want it to happen at the range. So when folks go to the range with their micro 9MMs( not a fan) and shoot 50-100 rounds at a target that is not shooting back and have difficulty obtaining positive outcomes perhaps they should not carry. In my mind you have to be prepared for any encounter no matter if it is close up or at distance. Training is the key to winning gunfights. Notice I used the word "Winning" not surviving. I also notice that some of the comments indicate that they would have no problem using deadly force but when the time comes will you perform or vapor lock. Having been in several deadly force encounters successfully I can tell you that you have to have the proper mindset or you are in serious trouble. I saw very good operators choke at the moment of truth during my career. So until you have been in a gunfight or deadly force situation perhaps it not wise to judge too Harshly. Everyones a bad ass on paper until the real event occurs. The bottom line friends is that you will not truly know how you will perform until the wolf comes for you. You will either become the sheepdog or the sheep. The more you train and enhance your skill sets the greater your chances of winning. Be Safe,Be Smart and TRAIN!!!!!!!!!
 
[McKennie], [Illinois Democratic Senator] Lightford and a friend were in the senator’s Mercedes...a Dodge SUV pulled in front of the Mercedes. Three people approached the Mercedes with handguns, and McKennie told Lightford to run. McKennie tossed the car keys into the street and backed away from the Mercedes. That’s when the gunfire erupted. “McKennie got a few feet away from the vehicle and stated that one subject began firing their weapon, to which McKennie responded by protecting himself and fired his weapon toward the subject,” the report stated. “McKennie ran south down 20th Avenue, after firing a few rounds and found cover next to a house,” the report also stated, as the alleged carjackers fired more rounds at him.
- Chicago Tribune Jan 12, 2022 at 5:21 pm

The liberal Democrat stated: “I think they were shooting at my husband and me, and lucky enough my husband is conceal and carry, and he was able to protect us.”
- Tatum Report, DECEMBER 27, 2021
 

Bassbob

Ronin
Given what I read this individual probably thought about the after action of taking the suspect down and decided it was worth a 100 dollars not to go through all the legal challenges that would be sure to follow. I was not there so I can't assume what his state of mind was at the time. I also do not know what his level of training and ability is. To be quite honest friends I have seen many CCW folks at the range and I have to tell that what I saw was not reassuring. I don't think people really realize just how prepared you have to be to mentally and physically engage in a gun fight. During my 22 years on a SWAT/Counter Terrorism team I fired between 4000-6000 rounds a month with just my handgun to maintain the tactical edge. When you add the other weapons systems I had to perform with you talking about a serious round count. Even with that level of training you can still have a bad range day and that's where you want it to happen at the range. So when folks go to the range with their micro 9MMs( not a fan) and shoot 50-100 rounds at a target that is not shooting back and have difficulty obtaining positive outcomes perhaps they should not carry. In my mind you have to be prepared for any encounter no matter if it is close up or at distance. Training is the key to winning gunfights. Notice I used the word "Winning" not surviving. I also notice that some of the comments indicate that they would have no problem using deadly force but when the time comes will you perform or vapor lock. Having been in several deadly force encounters successfully I can tell you that you have to have the proper mindset or you are in serious trouble. I saw very good operators choke at the moment of truth during my career. So until you have been in a gunfight or deadly force situation perhaps it not wise to judge too Harshly. Everyones a bad ass on paper until the real event occurs. The bottom line friends is that you will not truly know how you will perform until the wolf comes for you. You will either become the sheepdog or the sheep. The more you train and enhance your skill sets the greater your chances of winning. Be Safe,Be Smart and TRAIN!!!!!!!!!


Fortunately the threat the vast majority of the civilian population are likely to face, if at all, is not even on the same spectrum as the threats LEO, security forces or military are likely to face.

I spend far too much time at the range and money on ammo, just ask my wife. The fact is that since my job took me down here closer to where I live and out of north St. Louis city where I was for 9 years the odds of me ever needing to defend myself with a firearm have been reduced dramatically. I am much more likely to have to defend myself against a "Karen" who's front yard I just destroyed with a trackhoe. ( as of now my track record on that end has been stellar. Batting 1000 ) I haven't worn a vest or carried on my person at work in over a year now.

Is there a chance I could be involved in a gunfight? Sure, but it's not very likely. I train a lot. I take a lot of classes and then I use what I learn in those classes to continue training on my own time. Not just with firearms either. I somehow wound up being friends with an inordinate number of military ( current or ex) and cops, most of who are pretty serious guys who make me look stupid on the regular. In my opinion the smartest thing to do is to keep your muscle memory in the same spot as far as fundamentals, manipulation, tactical response, situational awareness, maintaining proper preparedness mentally and physically because if, god forbid, you are ever in that situation that is the only thing that's going to matter. I can't really honestly say that is the reason I do it anymore though. I do it because I like it. I enjoy training, I enjoy focus and perseverance. I spent the vast majority of my life in and out of sketchy situations based on employment, logistics and my inability to take any crap from anyone. I have literally been training to fight in one way or another since my dad taught me how to box starting at about age 6. Sometimes it feels really good to just sit back and enjoy life for what it is and not for what it "Might" become. This is a relatively recent observation. Though I have to say my "Relaxing" range days usually wind up involving more work than they should. We resort to what we know I suppose.


Anyway, I agree with your post.
 
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I had two complementary rules while I was working

1. If I don't know you you don't get into my personal space.

2. You CERTAINLY don’t get into my personal space or even approach me unless I can see your hands.

Both rules were situational of course but at work in the middle of the night, downtown, with no backup they were Ironclad.

I wasn't a jerk about it and I never got loud. Getting loud let's them know that you're intimidated.

" That's close enough bro. What can I do for you?"

"Do me a favor man, take your hands out of your pockets."

I didn't start using commands unless they ignored that initial request.

Not always but generally speaking if they had a weapon on them as soon as I said "hey man, keep your hands where I can see them." they'd reach for it. Not like they were trying to pull it but they try to touch it to make sure it was in place. Dead giveaway every time.

Rule 2A was you did not approach me for any reason with anything in your hands that could be used as a weapon
I agree with everything you said except being loud shows your intimidated, for me I see it as taking control of what could turn into a bad situation quickly and drawing attention of others makes for multiple witnesses.
 

Honorman

Operator
Fortunately the threat the vast majority of the civilian population are likely to face, if at all, is not even on the same spectrum as the threats LEO, security forces or military are likely to face.

I spend far too much time at the range and money on ammo, just ask my wife. The fact is that since my job took me down here closer to where I live and out of north St. Louis city where I was for 9 years the odds of me ever needing to defend myself with a firearm have been reduced dramatically. I am much more likely to have to defend myself against a "Karen" who's front yard I just destroyed with a trackhoe. ( as of now my track record on that end has been stellar. Batting 1000 ) I haven't worn a vest or carried on my person at work in over a year now.

Is there a chance I could be involved in a gunfight? Sure, but it's not very likely. I train a lot. I take a lot of classes and then I use what I learn in those classes to continue training on my own time. Not just with firearms either. I somehow wound up being friends with an inordinate number of military ( current or ex) and cops, most of who are pretty serious guys who make me look stupid on the regular. In my opinion the smartest thing to do is to keep your muscle memory in the same spot as far as fundamentals, manipulation, tactical response, situational awareness, maintaining proper preparedness mentally and physically because if, god forbid, you are ever in that situation that is the only thing that's going to matter. I can't really honestly say that is the reason I do it anymore though. I do it because I like it. I enjoy training, I enjoy focus and perseverance. I spent the vast majority of my life in and out of sketchy situations based on employment, logistics and my inability to take any crap from anyone. I have literally been training to fight in one way or another since my dad taught me how to box starting at about age 6. Sometimes it feels really good to just sit back and enjoy life for what it is and not for what it "Might" become. This is a relatively recent observation. Though I have to say my "Relaxing" range days usually wind up involving more work than they should. We resort to what we know I suppose.


Anyway, I agree with your post.
Bassbob, I enjoyed your post and you may be right in the fact you will never experience an armed encounter. Just the fact that you are training and enjoying the shooting aspect is awesome. The way things are now I think we all can agree with all the crime stats that the odds have increased a bit in defending yourself. That's where all your time and money spent on the range could be the very difference between life and death if the wolf comes for you. I'm seeing things happen now that I would never think would be taking place. It does concern me but I still go on with my life and I'm always prepared to repel an assault if need be. Keep training Bassbob and maintain the warrior spirit. TRAIN,BE SMART, THINK TACTICS
 

wolfpack076

Master Class
My Wife accuses me of being almost paranoid. I carry off-duty religiously. When out in a restaurant I always have to be able to see the door. In stores I always have to know where the exits and restrooms are. I'm always watching and looking around. Like I point things out to her. Is that young man wearing the hoodie in the hospital parking garage that's been walking around aimlessly visiting someone in the facility ? Or is he potentially scoping out a potential victim ? Is the person standing around the front of a store without any products or bags waiting for someone or waiting to find a potential target ? I taught my Wife to get to a place of safety and call 911 and tell them who I am what in wearing and what I'm doing and that I am armed if that situation ever presents itself where I find myself having to act. Hopefully it never ever does but I train and visit the range as much as time and money allows...
 

HayesGreener

Professional
42 years in LE, 10 years as a PI, bodyguard, and firearms trainer. I have been armed every day of my adult life, 52 years and counting. All my family know the gunfighter seat is mine is restaurants and Mrs Greener and I can spot an officer or operator by the way they enter a room. It is a mindset that never leaves you. We prepare for the worst and hope for the best. With 25 rounds of 45 acp and an attitude on board.
 
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