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Sig P320 vs Glock 45, the LEO and $450,000 to replace the Sigs.

jumpinjoe said:
Go here to read about the Milwaukee Police Dept. replacing all their Sigs and buying Glocks.
www.yahoo.com

Milwaukee police to get new firearms after injuries from accidental discharges

Milwaukee officials plan to spend more than $450,000 to replace the Police Department’s service weapon by using asset forfeiture funds.
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com
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45081AFC-28C1-4D5C-AF46-7DB11DEDE838.jpeg
 
apnews.com

AP Exclusive: Accidental shootings show police training gaps

SEATTLE (AP) — When an Iowa mother tried to take her child from her husband during an argument on a snowy sidewalk in 2015, an officer stepped in to stop the scuffle, but he accidentally fired his weapon as a dog approached...
apnews.com apnews.com

No one tracks these shootings nationwide, so the AP collected media reports and surveyed agencies across the country through public records requests. The review was not comprehensive, due to the sheer number of U.S. law enforcement agencies and a lack of reporting requirements for such shootings. But it provides a snapshot of the problem, documenting 1,422 unintentional discharges since 2012 at 258 agencies, and uncovering detailed reports on 426.
 
Why isn't the Military complaining of accidentally discharges and injuries?

The M17 and M18 are a Sig P320, with a few inconsequential changes except perhaps the Manual Safety.... ....except perhaps the Manual Safety....

Training and Discipline could be part of the problem, no one can replicate or identify what could be the flaw causing this.... .....but Sig might have a problem as the perception, right or wrong, is becoming their P320 lines has some sort of problem causing more accidentally discharges than other pistols...

How many Police Departments looking to replace service pistols, are going to see what Milwalkee did and decide why chance it, lets get the Glock instead of the Sig?
 
KillerFord1977 said:
Not really.
Its a tool to combat i’ll gotten gains by criminal acts and not burden the citizens on more taxes.
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Except the cops can seize assets that are only suspected to be gotten from criminal activity, and it’s up to the person they are seized from to prove otherwise.

Basically, you have to prove your innocence…which is anathema to our justice system.

It’s quite a pile of steaming bovine feces, and often abused by law enforcement agencies.
 
HansGruber said:
Except the cops can seize assets that are only suspected to be gotten from criminal activity, and it’s up to the person they are seized from to prove otherwise.

Basically, you have to prove your innocence…which is anathema to our justice system.

It’s quite a pile of steaming bovine feces, and often abused by law enforcement agencies.
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Wannabewoodsman said:
Not always the case. There are hundreds, if not thousands of claims against law enforcement for the legalized theft.

civilrights.org

Why Civil Asset Forfeiture is Legalized Theft

civilrights.org civilrights.org
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As taxpayers, maybe we should start asset forfeiture from the city depts and PD of stuff they do not use properly or stopped using.
 
HansGruber said:
Except the cops can seize assets that are only suspected to be gotten from criminal activity, and it’s up to the person they are seized from to prove otherwise.

Basically, you have to prove your innocence…which is anathema to our justice system.

It’s quite a pile of steaming bovine feces, and often abused by law enforcement agencies.
Click to expand...
Just wait till we get the additional 87k well armed bill collectors.
 
Getting back to the topic of the OP. Does anyone know if the Milwaukee PD's 320's had manual safeties?

They must really believe some, maybe all, of their 320's are defective, otherwise their switching to Glocks would not resolve their problem because operator error is operator error regardless of what brand your pistol is.
 
RickAnderson said:
Why isn't the Military complaining of accidentally discharges and injuries?

The M17 and M18 are a Sig P320, with a few inconsequential changes except perhaps the Manual Safety.... ....except perhaps the Manual Safety....

Training and Discipline could be part of the problem, no one can replicate or identify what could be the flaw causing this.... .....but Sig might have a problem as the perception, right or wrong, is becoming their P320 lines has some sort of problem causing more accidentally discharges than other pistols...

How many Police Departments looking to replace service pistols, are going to see what Milwalkee did and decide why chance it, lets get the Glock instead of the Sig?
Click to expand...
Retired LE trainer and former USAF here. For the Military handguns are not issued widespread. I was fortunate as Security Forcea we used and shot handguns a lot. But for most not so much.

With LEO it’s not an issue. You might have an issue from time to time like with the FN FNS being dropped because of it firing but the Sig 320 only has a few sporadic cases. And the fact a Union making waves well that’s what Public service Unions do. OR they didn’t like the Administration choice of SIGs. That happens more than not. Agencies change weapons when a new Chief or Department heads get in OR they get a sweetheart deal from a firearms company for a no of little charge replacement.

As far as increased accidents I mentioned in an earlier post the few with the 320 are nothing . When agencies across the border went from DA Revolvers or Hammer fired autos to Glock there were accidental shootings so much it was coined “Glock Leg” so one or two isn’t anything that doesn’t happen at any time with inept handling. It’s just noise is made because it’s a 320 (like every dog attack that’s reported anyway is always a pit bull)

And the 400K price is a drop in the bucket for a budget for a department the size of Millwaukee
 
Tenbones said:
Getting back to the topic of the OP. Does anyone know if the Milwaukee PD's 320's had manual safeties?

They must really believe some, maybe all, of their 320's are defective, otherwise their switching to Glocks would not resolve their problem because operator error is operator error regardless of what brand your pistol is.
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Doing an internet search for "Police P320", and getting lots of photos of labeled Police, not a single one has a manual safety lever or any other kind of additional safety device over the standard P320 that I can see in the photos.

I've only seen the M17/M18 and the civilian versions with a manual safety lever.

ECS686 said:
Retired LE trainer and former USAF here. For the Military handguns are not issued widespread. I was fortunate as Security Forcea we used and shot handguns a lot. But for most not so much.

With LEO it’s not an issue. You might have an issue from time to time like with the FN FNS being dropped because of it firing but the Sig 320 only has a few sporadic cases. And the fact a Union making waves well that’s what Public service Unions do. OR they didn’t like the Administration choice of SIGs. That happens more than not. Agencies change weapons when a new Chief or Department heads get in OR they get a sweetheart deal from a firearms company for a no of little charge replacement.

As far as increased accidents I mentioned in an earlier post the few with the 320 are nothing . When agencies across the border went from DA Revolvers or Hammer fired autos to Glock there were accidental shootings so much it was coined “Glock Leg” so one or two isn’t anything that doesn’t happen at any time with inept handling. It’s just noise is made because it’s a 320 (like every dog attack that’s reported anyway is always a pit bull)

And the 400K price is a drop in the bucket for a budget for a department the size of Millwaukee
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Rifles are the standard issue for the bulk of the Military, yes. But the Military is purchasing 280,000 M17/M18 and have taken delivery of half of those already. What police department has 140,000 pistols?

The question is valid, why is the military not reporting these accidental discharges that police departments are? The military has enough to provide a valid sample size for comparison.
 
RickAnderson said:
Doing an internet search for "Police P320", and getting lots of photos of labeled Police, not a single one has a manual safety lever or any other kind of additional safety device over the standard P320 that I can see in the photos.

I've only seen the M17/M18 and the civilian versions with a manual safety lever.


Rifles are the standard issue for the bulk of the Military, yes. But the Military is purchasing 280,000 M17/M18 and have taken delivery of half of those already. What police department has 140,000 pistols?

The question is valid, why is the military not reporting these accidental discharges that police departments are? The military has enough to provide a valid sample size for comparison.
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The Military under reports a lot. They have homicides and drugs on base but you hardly hear about it outside of an Active Shooter situation. So nothing new there. However From my own military experience (and the USAF carried Berettas with a round in the chamber and on fire in DA mode) there’s just not an abundance of ADs. Yea ADs happen and usually at clearing barrels. Just not in epic numbers.

As far as 140,000 Sigs and an Agency. DHS encompasses Customs, USBP, Secret Service and a few others which adds up to almost 100,000 Glock 47 so you can have a few hundred thousand SIG 320 carrying LE agencies if you combine just a few. Some of the Sig Departments. State agencies alone TX, OK, WY, OH, VA, NC and others that standard issue then there are the scores of Privately Owned Weapons that are approved for duty. Like the Glock 40 S&W KB the SIG 320 AD is over reported and sensationalized in LE agencies.

Also factor in Out of the State Police agencies mentioned your up to about 15,000 troopers or more that Use their Handguns more than the Military (how many Military members carry loaded handguns on a day in day out basis in a non training capacity?) With MPs and a few others the numbers are not going to be that high they aren’t carrying the hundreds of thousands of guns at once. And how many Military Units do chamber live ammo as a condition of approved duty carry? I know the USAF does but I can’t speak of the other branches.
 
ECS686 said:
The Military under reports a lot. They have homicides and drugs on base but you hardly hear about it outside of an Active Shooter situation. So nothing new there. However From my own military experience (and the USAF carried Berettas with a round in the chamber and on fire in DA mode) there’s just not an abundance of ADs. Yea ADs happen and usually at clearing barrels. Just not in epic numbers.

As far as 140,000 Sigs and an Agency. DHS encompasses Customs, USBP, Secret Service and a few others which adds up to almost 100,000 Glock 47 so you can have a few hundred thousand SIG 320 carrying LE agencies if you combine just a few. Some of the Sig Departments. State agencies alone TX, OK, WY, OH, VA, NC and others that standard issue then there are the scores of Privately Owned Weapons that are approved for duty. Like the Glock 40 S&W KB the SIG 320 AD is over reported and sensationalized in LE agencies.

Also factor in Out of the State Police agencies mentioned your up to about 15,000 troopers or more that Use their Handguns more than the Military (how many Military members carry loaded handguns on a day in day out basis in a non training capacity?) With MPs and a few others the numbers are not going to be that high they aren’t carrying the hundreds of thousands of guns at once. And how many Military Units do chamber live ammo as a condition of approved duty carry? I know the USAF does but I can’t speak of the other branches.
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So you're saying the Military is suffering the same AD incidents as law enforcement, they are just covering it up? Is that your Air Force Experience? Wasn't mine in the Marines, glad I didn't join the Air Force. When the Military discovered the Drop Fire issue, it could be read about in the media, didn't notice any cover up in those incidents.

I never argued the Military had more time carrying chambered rounds than all law enforcement combined, I argued the Military has enough P320's and usage, that you can't ignore and dismiss their experience on statistical sample size, which you seem to be determined to do.

We don't have true data, we have anecdotal evidence of isolated reports and complaints. Milwaukee Police have concluded they would rather have Glocks than the P320, because of incidents and their own armorers assessment of the design. Those incidents and reports are coming from Law Enforcement and Civilians, not the military, that I have seen. It is possible, the Military is reporting it, but the media doesn't consider it sensational enough to report it.

So its either media is reporting on the Military's experience with the P320 or the military insisting on a safety featured added to their version that is making the difference. Or again it could be the incidents are anecdotal and its being sensationalized. But no sooner has one story died down, there is a report of another one.

I also have experienced people claiming Orange Fram Oil filters are just as good as any other filter that costs 3 times more, and all those reports of engine damage are anecdotal and the expert assessments of cardboard end caps don't prove anything....
 
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Wannabewoodsman said:
On a different subject, asset forfeiture is disgusting
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i don't think so, from a financial view point.

if my city and all the local cities (in my state) seize, cars, pick ups, SUV's, whatever else, that saves the cities monies to buy those things that are then used for the detectives or other undercover work.

later on, as those vehicles age, they get auctioned off, which the cities also reap, which at that time frankly, the vehicles are beat to death, and the monies they garner at auction isn't much.

house can be seized as well, if i recall here when drugs are involved, then sold off at auctions.

hey, if the criminals can profit from thier crimes, so can the general public/law enforcement later
 
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