Sig P320 vs Glock 45, the LEO and $450,000 to replace the Sigs.

[RickAnderson]

Incidents on film? There is film of one of these guns going off by itself? Got a link ?

Barring some sort of actual evidence that any of these guns are capable of firing on their own, it's UNPROVABLE. And most likely it is frivolous BS brought on by people who failed to properly train themselves how to maintain and manipulate striker fired guns, Most of them female cops who put their guns in their purse with a bunch of other crap.


I'll point out that I don't now and have never owned a Sig and really have no plans to in the immediate future ( The Legions do look nice though). So if you can link me to a video of one of them going off by itself I will promptly change my opinion. Until then I am going to chalk it up to affirmative action dumbing down the gene pool of the nation's police forces by hiring people that frankly have no business being in law enforcement.

Yes, the first reports have been unwitnessed accounts with circumstances that call into question the judgement of the owner and perhaps there are factors that might have been induced by the owners.

But since then, there has been more incidents reported that are more credible.

The OP link

Go here to read about the Milwaukee Police Dept. replacing all their Sigs and buying Glocks.

Milwaukee police to get new firearms after injuries from accidental discharges

Milwaukee officials plan to spend more than $450,000 to replace the Police Department’s service weapon by using asset forfeiture funds.

www.yahoo.com

A better link

Milwaukee Police Report Issues With Sig P320's Discharging

bearingarms.com

In the article,

...body camera video showed Parks’ gun side was against Yancey during the struggle. “From this video, it was unclear if Yancey manipulated Officer Parks’ gun in the holster,” Milwaukee police Sgt. Allen Groszczyk wrote in the memo.

Groszczyk added, “I am awaiting further evidence of DNA swabs taken from the pistol and holster in this incident.”

It would take five months for the DNA results to come back and leave investigators to conclude Yancey did not pull the trigger on Parks’ gun.

They have not released the body cam footage that I am aware of, that might be for policy, or that might be because it is part of the lawsuit they have brought against Sig, that I have read the Department had worked with Sig to resolve this, but became so frustrated with Sig's refusals to make assurances and answer questions, the filed the lawsuit.

Also in the article,

the two armorers identified several concerns about the internal design of the gun:

• Lack of safety lever springs in pistols
• Metal injection molding, which can lead to inconsistent surface areas
• Potential for “walk-off” of the striker from the sear and the double notched sear

So you can claim the Police Department is lying and falsified investigations, as you accept at face value SIG could not duplicate the malfunction. Just how extensive was Sig's efforts to duplicate the malfunction?

There is this, with multiple eye witnesses,

50 cases out of 100's of thousands of P320's in the field, does call into question how evasive the problem is, and is it some errant outlier in statistics.
At the same time, do 1911's or Glocks have 50 cases of firing without touching the trigger? That is gun firing without touching the trigger, not human error Glock leg.
And we are talking firearms here, not toasters, 50 out of 100's of thousands toasters having a massive failure wouldn't be a concern. Of course if 50 out of 100's of thousands of toaster were exploding and injuring people, I think you would see people complaining.
If 50 out of 315,000 airline flights ended in crashes, do you think people would be saying, nothing to see here, these aren't provable. That would be 50 crashes a week in the U.S.

I do own a Sig P320, BUT, I own the M18 version that has a manual safety, while the overwhelming majority of P320's do not.

And the military is not reporting these firings without touching the trigger like L.E. and Civilians are, or the media is ignoring it, which I doubt since they didn't ignore the others issues.... ....the difference, the military required a manual safety....

I have field stripped it and compared it to my other pistols, as I manipulated the action.... ....it is eye opening....

And to be fair, my Sig P320 M18 has a manual safety, so that might change the action from the other P320 even when the safety is off....

All of my other pistols, I have to manipulate a safety device, either manual or automatic for the sear to even move, both striker and hammer fired pistols... ....once I manipulated the safety device to free up the sear on my other devices, I can move the sear and it moves independent of the trigger and firing pin block linkage, i.e. moving the sear does not move the trigger and does not move the firing pin block linkage so the firing pin block would stay in place stopping the firing pin/striker....

My P320 M18, with the manual safety on, the sear is locked and will not move.... ....with the manual safety off, "if that representative of other P320 not equipped with a manual safety", the sear can be moved, and when it moves the trigger moves with it, and firing pin block linkage moves with it, to clear the firing pin block....

...and we have reports of sear "walk-off", without an explanation of what that really means, I can envision what it implies, with my other pistols, the sear can't walk-off cause there is a safety device locking it, but if I did leave the manual safety off or an automatic safety would fail and the sear walked-off, the firing pin would be stopped by the firing pin block.... ...a sig p320 a sear walking off would also be moving the trigger and clearing the firing pin block...

 

[RickAnderson]

Rick Again I say this Respectfully. We can disagree (and I am in no way a SIg fan) You seem to be reading reported events and basing your view in what you read. I am basing my view point with what I saw and experienced. It’s all history of these things and usually the way it works out.

Yes we can disagree, I have acknowledged that 50 incidents and climbing compared to the sheer numbers of fielded P320's does call into question just how extensive the problem is...... ..I still maintain its something not to ignore...

I'm not a particular fan of any brand or pistol, perhaps a penchant for 1911's, and I don't carry, but personally I would not carry a pistol cocked and a round in the chamber without a safety device that locks the sear, especially if I was going to carry all day long, every day and could also expect to run, jump, dive, tackle, wrestle and fight with others, operate vehicles with vibration and jolts and jarring, while carrying that cocked and a round chamber pistol.... regardless of what brand it is.... ...back in the day, when I did carry and could expect to do all those things, I was issued a pistol with a manual safety and by reg was to have the safety on, so yes, I have a bias from that experience, but reasoned with it and agree with it... ...especially my MOS, if I had a hard landing or crash that could easily exceed the acceleration forces of a drop test, if I survived, the last thing I needed was my pistol to shoot me as well as the crash injuries...

Now, don't take me as accusing you of doing this, you're not, but when you see posts stating multiple eye witnesses to events, video recorded events, police investigation to include DNA testing to assure someone that might have touched the pistol did not, they are dismissing them out of hand claiming they prove nothing; then state Sig state they tried to duplicate the failure, and they couldn't, that proves it. You don't see a bias in that?

The FN FNS, FN discontinued it and replaced it with a redesigned model. and Sig is doing what?

Remington 700, did people argue its not provable, its all negligence of the shooter nothing is wrong with the firearm...

I'm not a gunsmith, and my P320 is the M18 configuration... ..so while its reasonable to expect the M18 with the safety off the action works just like a P320 without any manual safety, I don't know that....
So my Springfields, my Auto-Ordnace, my FN, my 80% frame 1911's, I can manipulate the sear, but only after disabling the safety device that locks it in place, if I manipulate the sear and make it move, it will move independently of the trigger and firing pin block linkage. (I have one 70 series 1911, so no FPB, just the half-cock notch) thus if a sear were to fail or just somehow moved out of position and let go the hammer/striker, the pistol would not fire (perhaps my 70 series 1911 if the half-cock failed as well).

My P320, if you manipulate the sear and move it, the trigger and firing pin block (FPB) move with it, so if sear were to move on its own and let go of the striker, the firing pin block would be lifted and out of the way, the pistol could very well fire.

I'll grant you this needs to be verified on a P320 without a manual safety, I am making the assumption an M18 with the Manual Safety Off, the action works exactly like a P320 without a manual safety. You also have safety features for cleaning that block or change things in the action when the slide is removed, that I possibly could have missed and get the wrong impression of the action.....

So yes, a sear creeping off the striker from acceleration forces while being carried, sounds extremely unlikely, but not impossible. And then only if there is no safety device locking the sear. And then other safety devices would have to be disabled or manipulated to clear/unblock the striker to allow it to fire. Can't happen with my other pistols, but could happen with my P320 M18 if the manual safety was off. And you have police armorers talking about sear walk-off and their P320 has no manual safety.

Extremely unlikely, but not impossible, sounds like 50 out of 100's of thousands, seeing the most severe usage. If the phenomenon is better understood, it can be better prevented, if not fixed. Of course we'll get there by simply dismissing it and doing nothing about it.

Remember the P320 passed all the Military's drop fire tests, then a year later it dropped fired. They didn't say its human error on the droppers fault, its not provable, the military did drop test and could not duplicate it. Once it was examined and understood, you had bozos on youtube duplicating it with hammers. It was then fixed. Yet before it was understood, the military tried their darndest to duplicate a drop fire and couldn't, only after the flaw was understood, then it could easily be duplicated and fixed.

 

[Bassbob]

Yes, the first reports have been unwitnessed accounts with circumstances that call into question the judgement of the owner and perhaps there are factors that might have been induced by the owners.

But since then, there has been more incidents reported that are more credible.

The OP link

A better link

Milwaukee Police Report Issues With Sig P320's Discharging

bearingarms.com

In the article,

They have not released the body cam footage that I am aware of, that might be for policy, or that might be because it is part of the lawsuit they have brought against Sig, that I have read the Department had worked with Sig to resolve this, but became so frustrated with Sig's refusals to make assurances and answer questions, the filed the lawsuit.

Also in the article,


So you can claim the Police Department is lying and falsified investigations, as you accept at face value SIG could not duplicate the malfunction. Just how extensive was Sig's efforts to duplicate the malfunction?

There is this, with multiple eye witnesses,

50 cases out of 100's of thousands of P320's in the field, does call into question how evasive the problem is, and is it some errant outlier in statistics.
At the same time, do 1911's or Glocks have 50 cases of firing without touching the trigger? That is gun firing without touching the trigger, not human error Glock leg.
And we are talking firearms here, not toasters, 50 out of 100's of thousands toasters having a massive failure wouldn't be a concern. Of course if 50 out of 100's of thousands of toaster were exploding and injuring people, I think you would see people complaining.
If 50 out of 315,000 airline flights ended in crashes, do you think people would be saying, nothing to see here, these aren't provable. That would be 50 crashes a week in the U.S.

I do own a Sig P320, BUT, I own the M18 version that has a manual safety, while the overwhelming majority of P320's do not.

And the military is not reporting these firings without touching the trigger like L.E. and Civilians are, or the media is ignoring it, which I doubt since they didn't ignore the others issues.... ....the difference, the military required a manual safety....

I have field stripped it and compared it to my other pistols, as I manipulated the action.... ....it is eye opening....

And to be fair, my Sig P320 M18 has a manual safety, so that might change the action from the other P320 even when the safety is off....

All of my other pistols, I have to manipulate a safety device, either manual or automatic for the sear to even move, both striker and hammer fired pistols... ....once I manipulated the safety device to free up the sear on my other devices, I can move the sear and it moves independent of the trigger and firing pin block linkage, i.e. moving the sear does not move the trigger and does not move the firing pin block linkage so the firing pin block would stay in place stopping the firing pin/striker....

My P320 M18, with the manual safety on, the sear is locked and will not move.... ....with the manual safety off, "if that representative of other P320 not equipped with a manual safety", the sear can be moved, and when it moves the trigger moves with it, and firing pin block linkage moves with it, to clear the firing pin block....

...and we have reports of sear "walk-off", without an explanation of what that really means, I can envision what it implies, with my other pistols, the sear can't walk-off cause there is a safety device locking it, but if I did leave the manual safety off or an automatic safety would fail and the sear walked-off, the firing pin would be stopped by the firing pin block.... ...a sig p320 a sear walking off would also be moving the trigger and clearing the firing pin block...

Yeah, because police departments are A) Armorers and firearms design experts and B) Have nothing at all to gain from shifting the blame for ND or other mishaps on anyone other than their officers and/or training programs.

I mean, jesus dude, one of the things they cited was metal injection moulding. Which encompasses a hell of a lot more firearms than Sig.


Sig did a safety recall and they smell blood in the water and an opportunity to take the spotlight off themselves. Maybe get some money in the process.

 

[RickAnderson]

I quoted the assessment of the Police Departments Armorers, they do have them...

Lack of safety lever springs, do you need to be firearms design expert to be able to find that?

If the only thing they said was it had MIM parts as the cause, I would agree with you, but it was one of several things specifically noted a particular drawback of MIM, if they are identifying an inappropriate or less than properly finished piece of MIM as a problem, that might be applicable. I don't read that and see, anything with MIM is junk, oh we didn't know everything else has MIM also....

But its clear you've made up your mind, and know what the answer is, so.....

 

[Bassbob]

I quoted the assessment of the Police Departments Armorers, they do have them...

Lack of safety lever springs, do you need to be firearms design expert to be able to find that?

If the only thing they said was it had MIM parts as the cause, I would agree with you, but it was one of several things specifically noted a particular drawback of MIM, if they are identifying an inappropriate or less than properly finished piece of MIM as a problem, that might be applicable. I don't read that and see, anything with MIM is junk, oh we didn't know everything else has MIM also....

But its clear you've made up your mind, and know what the answer is, so.....

I'm willing to be convinced, but only by actual evidence.

 

[ECS686]

I quoted the assessment of the Police Departments Armorers, they do have them...

Lack of safety lever springs, do you need to be firearms design expert to be able to find that?

If the only thing they said was it had MIM parts as the cause, I would agree with you, but it was one of several things specifically noted a particular drawback of MIM, if they are identifying an inappropriate or less than properly finished piece of MIM as a problem, that might be applicable. I don't read that and see, anything with MIM is junk, oh we didn't know everything else has MIM also....

But its clear you've made up your mind, and know what the answer is, so.....

To me, Going to an 8 hour Sig or Glock armorer course (their title) and saying you are an armorer is a farvreach. With a Stryker fired gun you are more of a technician.

Now a 1911 course or S&W revolver armorer from back in the day where you actually fit parts and fit extractors and safeties would carry more weight.

I have delt with Agency Union in relation to firearms. From an idiot shooting a DAO Beretta to blocking any attempt at getting involved to help me get new guns that were approved and adopted at the national level because the “Armory” person in charge didn’t want to give up the then current make. So those cases make me suspicious when a Union is involve. They should stick to defending line staff from overzealous executive and administrative lug nuts!

 

[David N.]

A good view of the internal safety mechanisms inside the P320 fire control unit.

 

[Annihilator]

On MIM parts, all S&W revolvers, XD and Springfield 1911’s, Kimber 1911, Ruger just to name a few all have MIM internals, if there done right, no issues, just don’t go hog wild on a trigger job when the parts are MIM, machined or forged internals are always better

 

[Area52]

Call me cynical...
but behind every big city purchasing agreement is some big city donor.
The citing of a safety issue is an arguable excuse.

 

[Pitdogg2]

Except the cops can seize assets that are only suspected to be gotten from criminal activity, and it’s up to the person they are seized from to prove otherwise.

Basically, you have to prove your innocence…which is anathema to our justice system.

It’s quite a pile of steaming bovine feces, and often abused by law enforcement agencies.

Completely agree.
A good friend of mine got caught up in that because he had a large amount of cash on his person. The amount of horsehockey he went through and the cash outlay in law fees was stupid. With no proof what so ever they just hammered him and hid behind BS and subterfuge, it took him 5yrs to get his money back. 5 flipping years!! He wanted to just walk away more than once... but as he said "It's the principal of the matter it's my cash and when did cash become illegal"

 

[Pitdogg2]

Getting back to the topic of the OP. Does anyone know if the Milwaukee PD's 320's had manual safeties?

They must really believe some, maybe all, of their 320's are defective, otherwise their switching to Glocks would not resolve their problem because operator error is operator error regardless of what brand your pistol is.

Not really, it could have easily been a insurance risk review they didn't want to chance. Just that simple.

 

[SimonRL]

Sounds like they need better training.

Maybe they should have kept the Sigs and replaced the cops.

 

[Annihilator]

Maybe they should have kept the Sigs and replaced the cops.

Keep the cops……dump the Sigs…..

 

[KillerFord1977]

I dont know what the fuss is really about on Sigs vs Glocks
Most cops cant hit broad side of a barn anyway. Just let them keep the nightstick

 

[Annihilator]

In all seriousness, Sig, Glock, M&P and such doesn’t mean a thing unless you are serious about training with the said weapons, no matter what manufacturer

 

[Annihilator]

As many know here I really like Glock pistols, now over this past year I have picked up some Sig pistols. Head to head comparisons, I would take my G34 over my P320 X-Five legion hands down, M17 and my G17, very close on this one but the Sig gets the nod, and last but not least, my P365 I would take over any pistol out there in this size and category, this is truly a great little gun, this is my opinion.

 

[SimonRL]

As many know here I really like Glock pistols, now over this past year I have picked up some Sig pistols. Head to head comparisons, I would take my G34 over my P320 X-Five legion hands down, M17 and my G17, very close on this one but the Sig gets the nod, and last but not least, my P365 I would take over any pistol out there in this size and category, this is truly a great little gun, this is my opinion.

 

[SimonRL]

As many know here I really like Glock pistols, now over this past year I have picked up some Sig pistols. Head to head comparisons, I would take my G34 over my P320 X-Five legion hands down, M17 and my G17, very close on this one but the Sig gets the nod, and last but not least, my P365 I would take over any pistol out there in this size and category, this is truly a great little gun, this is my opinion.

I feel the same way about the P365. I don’t know how anyone else manages to sell a micro compact.

 

[Area52]

Getting back to the topic of the OP. Does anyone know if the Milwaukee PD's 320's had manual safeties?

They must really believe some, maybe all, of their 320's are defective, otherwise their switching to Glocks would not resolve their problem because operator error is operator error regardless of what brand your pistol is.

Since the drop discharge issue was discovered and addressed 5 years ago and MPD went to standard issuance of, one would think…the upgraded P320 in July 2019.
Those AD lawsuits are directed at City of Milwaukee, PD et al and that by replacing departments handguns is their response to show a willingness to correct the controversy by exercising an abundance of caution, essentially not being confident with the product would lessen the city liability.
(Ironically it was Omaha Outdoors that brought the drop hazard to light and apparently Sig made an immediate effort to correct the issue.)

 

[dad]

My solution is to not purchase one. Simple but effective.