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Urgent Member Alert: ATF Update on Revised Form 4473

So after reading the thread attachment and reading the description of each change (twice);
“and unless I’m missing something”
I fail to see any changes that would prevent/delay;
“based on individual state laws”
the immediate transfer of a firearm to any law abiding citizen.
In regards to the changes to the possible delays in transferring guns to those of 21 or under I see them as important changes based on recent events where transfers have occurred to those not emotionally ready to understand the responsibilities and subsequent consequences of firearm ownership.
My opinion.

Let the bashing begin.
 
Keystone19250 said:
So after reading the thread attachment and reading the description of each change (twice);
“and unless I’m missing something”
I fail to see any changes that would prevent/delay;
“based on individual state laws”
the immediate transfer of a firearm to any law abiding citizen.
In regards to the changes to the possible delays in transferring guns to those of 21 or under I see them as important changes based on recent events where transfers have occurred to those not emotionally ready to understand the responsibilities and subsequent consequences of firearm ownership.
My opinion.

Let the bashing begin.
Click to expand...
No bashing from me. I respect your opinion and agree with it on some level but i don’t see it changing anything. Having said that, however, if a person is an “adult” at 18 and is legal to vote and serve their country then that is where the line should be drawn. If they want 21 to be the de facto “adult-enough” age for certain firearm transactions then the legal adult age should be 21. That should be the age one gets to vote or join the military. If they were consistent i’d have less of an issue. Hell, some politicians want to lower the voting age to 16!
Maybe the same standards for gun ownership should be applied to voting. Elections certainly do have consequences and can end lives… look at Chicago.
 
mikep said:
No bashing from me. I respect your opinion and agree with it on some level but i don’t see it changing anything. Having said that, however, if a person is an “adult” at 18 and is legal to vote and serve their country then that is where the line should be drawn. If they want 21 to be the de facto “adult-enough” age for certain firearm transactions then the legal adult age should be 21. That should be the age one gets to vote or join the military. If they were consistent i’d have less of an issue. Hell, some politicians want to lower the voting age to 16!
Maybe the same standards for gun ownership should be applied to voting. Elections certainly do have consequences and can end lives… look at Chicago.
Click to expand...
And I do agree with you on that, that’s why I added “emotionally ready”
I should also add that I’m sure that 95% of those between 18-21 will fall under the category of emotionally ready it’s the 5% that worries me.
 
Do you intend to commit crime X with the firearm you are buying? Do you intend to commit crime Y with the firearm you are buying? Except they don't even dumb the question down and write in nearly understandable legalese.

What do you expect from the people that assume you are stupid enough to swallow their BS.

I suspect there are people with an agenda to make the form so confusing people will make mistakes, just so they can deny the mistake for a typo.
 
Unless I misunderstand, it looks like they are trying to open the door to prosecute you should the firearm be used in the commission of a crime by someone else. Asking about your intent on any level is problematic. I can see a prosecutor arguing that you intended to kill someone when you purchased your gun in a self defense trial.

Then again, how will these vague questions actually make a difference in reducing crime? Have criminals suddenly grown a conscience with the new regulations? How does this prevent someone from illegally obtaining a firearm? Do these declarations prevent anything or give them additional ways to deprive law abiding citizens and businesses of their rights?
 
Keystone19250 said:
So after reading the thread attachment and reading the description of each change (twice);
“and unless I’m missing something”
I fail to see any changes that would prevent/delay;
“based on individual state laws”
the immediate transfer of a firearm to any law abiding citizen.
In regards to the changes to the possible delays in transferring guns to those of 21 or under I see them as important changes based on recent events where transfers have occurred to those not emotionally ready to understand the responsibilities and subsequent consequences of firearm ownership.
My opinion.

Let the bashing begin.
Click to expand...
I can tell you these forms are already in use. Complete with binary option under gender question. Also a delay ( Remember that something like 90% of DENIALS are in error so nearly all delays by NICS will end up as proceed with sale) now requires the FFL to input your personal information, including your address, into the NICS inquiry. To be shared with local law enforcement who are to open an investigation.

As for the 18-21 change, not only is it blatantly unconstitutional, and there is plenty of precedent to back me up here, but it’s essentially assuming that everyone under 21 is likely a prohibited person and allows them to open juvenile records, which are by federal law sealed when you reach 18, on everyone who has the gall to beg the FBI to allow them to exercise their constitutional rights.

Until they address the problem of the NICS database being 90% in error when they deny a gun sale, allowing them to open intrusive and unconstitutional investigations into anyone who is delayed and allowing them to increase the 3 day rule to 10 days simply because someone isn’t 21 is ridiculously discriminatory and unconstitutional.

Furthermore, supporting these changes means you accept the ATF having the authority to create laws rather than simply enforcing them.
 
TidalWave said:
Guys, guys… [sigh]… never mind all that stuff.

Let’s get to the real problem of Why did they leave out pronoun options in the name/identity section??
he/him/his
she/her/hers
Click to expand...
Even before this, they had changed it to include "None-Binary"....
4 months ago, I got a XD-M .45, doing the 4473, under sex, no kidding, Male, Female, None-Binary.....
 
RickAnderson said:
Even before this, they had changed it to include "None-Binary"....
4 months ago, I got a XD-M .45, doing the 4473, under sex, no kidding, Male, Female, None-Binary.....
Click to expand...
On Monday I filled out a 4473 to complete the transfer to me for the Elite compact 45ACP that I traded in another firearm for and did not see the
Non-Binary selection box although full disclosure I wasn’t looking for it.
Of course I checked (male) as soon as I saw that box and moved on to other questions.
 
Keystone19250 said:
On Monday I filled out a 4473 to complete the transfer to me for the Elite compact 45ACP that I traded in another firearm for and did not see the
Non-Binary selection box although full disclosure I wasn’t looking for it.
Of course I checked (male) as soon as I saw that box and moved on to other questions.
Click to expand...
When I did it, I typed "M" into the box and immediately auto-filled with "Male".
I made the pithy comment, "How long before we have all 67 genders on a list to check off".
The FFL, smirked and said, "Hit the down arrow on the box to see all the possible selections".
We both shook our heads and half-laughed/groaned in disgust, as what came up...

  • MALE
  • FEMALE
  • NONE-BINARY
So I would have missed it too, if I hadn't commented and the FFL actually showed me.
 
RickAnderson said:
When I did it, I typed "M" into the box and immediately auto-filled with "Male".
I made the pithy comment, "How long before we have all 67 genders on a list to check off".
The FFL, smirked and said, "Hit the down arrow on the box to see all the possible selections".
We both shook our heads and half-laughed/groaned in disgust, as what came up...

  • MALE
  • FEMALE
  • NONE-BINARY
So I would have missed it too, if I hadn't commented and the FFL actually showed me.
Click to expand...
I did mine on paper not a computer.
 
RickAnderson said:
When I did it, I typed "M" into the box and immediately auto-filled with "Male".
I made the pithy comment, "How long before we have all 67 genders on a list to check off".
The FFL, smirked and said, "Hit the down arrow on the box to see all the possible selections".
We both shook our heads and half-laughed/groaned in disgust, as what came up...

  • MALE
  • FEMALE
  • NONE-BINARY
So I would have missed it too, if I hadn't commented and the FFL actually showed me.
Click to expand...
How do you tell the police who the attacker was : a non binary attacked me … are they going to put out an alert for a man or a woman 🤔🙄🙄🙄🙄
 
Although the change becomes mandatory April 2023 - what are they expecting…a run on firearms/parts ?
(“ATF encourages all federal firearms licensees (FFLs) to begin using the Amended Form immediately.”)

When it comes to Safer Communities Act, how comes’ there’s no provision for inter-gang thugs to abide by the 4473 when they sell/exchange/barter? Not even a $20 fine.

They're adamant to make changes and ask a boatload of nonsense questions beyond a gender and a city limits address, so why not add a question about street corner fraternal memberships…it’s for the good of the community…right?
 
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