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Manual Safety or Not: Too Dangerous To Carry?

Woodsman story time!

I was an MP in the Army and responded to a "domestic disturbance". It was payday weekend (which is ALWAYS fun as an MP) and a soldier had been drinking since around 1700. We were responding at around 0330. Said soldier got into an argument with his wife and grabbed a kitchen knife.

We (the MPs) came on scene, M9s drawn. Last call to come out from dispatch was there was a knife. Inside was chaos! I saw blood all over the linoleum, walls and carpet, half naked wife screaming, man wiping his hands on his white and bloody shirt not cooperating with commands to get out of the kitchen, blue suiter (DoD civilian cop that works with us) issuing commands. All 3 of us LE had weapons drawn on the drunk soldier. We later found the knife stabbed into the door frame above the door (not sure why).

"What's your point, Woodsman?"
Glad you asked. At the time we were using Berretta M9s which are SA/DA guns WITH a manual safety. ("Get to the point, bro.. ")
During that chaos, I FORGOT to switch from safe to fire. We never trained for high pressure situations and because of that I forgot to check for that.

What was the problem? I DIDN'T TRAIN TO REMOVE MANUAL SAFETIES. From that point on my weapon was on fire in my holster.

Now I carry a 1911 and have trained myself to switch from safe to fire.

Is it dangerous? Only if you're not trained for it
 
Talking about being behind......and very glad for it! Things I dislike other than my neighbors that top the list!
1. manual safeties
2. grip safeties
3. pistols/semi-autos (non revolvers) that have both!

You want a manual or grip safety on your firearm then go for it!
I want a pistol with none of the 3 listed above in any way, fashion or fit!
Now for full disclosure. I do own 4 handguns with manual safeties (DE, smith 2.0, FN and walther) and 2 with grip safeties (xdm). Every firearm in the world with a manual trigger on it that requires a human to operate with a finger has a manual safety.....it's called a finger (thumbs included)(most don't include a brain). Your life, your choice when in your hands and sometimes it could include others! What's next "my dog is better than your dog"! YouTube isn't the best nor reliable source! I look at it like writing a paper for english class for a grade........subjective!
 
When we transitioned from revolvers to S&W 3rd Gen pistols in the early 80's I was in charge of transition training. I relied a lot on lessons learned from Illinois State Police who had been carrying this format since the late 60's. We taught our officers they could carry the pistol with the safety in the "fire" position but all draw and fire drills started with the holster secure and the safety "on". We were conditioning the officers to sweep the safety off during the draw, so that step was covered either way you carried it.
 
Coming to this late, but discussing the P320 issues, I have examined the actions of my pistols against the P320.

So one thing I can add, I have a new appreciation of my Springfield Armory XD-M's built in safety. That little grip safety that I had my doubts about doing much. I have found, the sear is locked down solid while that grip safety is un-pressed, and it only has to go in halfway to unlock it, so even the loosest grip will deactivate the grip safety. Yes, the grip safety will likely if not definitely be depressed while unholstering/holstering, but it also has a trigger bar safety. And it is possible for the grip safety to be pressed while it in the holster, but for how long?

Remember, manual safety's can be accidentally flipped. That was a problem with the M9 (Berretta 92) IIRC, it was simply an overcenter and no detent, or if there was a detent, it was so slight it wasn't noticeable.

More than once, more than a few times, while carrying the M9, I had found the safety got flipped off somehow and had to put the safety back on.

The 1911's manual safety does not seem like it would flip off as easily. I don't know that, because I only trained on the 1911 and have them for recreation, I have never carried a 1911 for any extensive amount of time.
 
HayesGreener said:
Srandard LEO training has the M9 carried with the safety on fire and the safety is used for decocking. Officers should still train to sweep the safety off on the draw.
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I agree with you, I can see how in a stressful situation, forgetting to switch the safety to fire. But that should be overcome with Training and Drilling, not simply defeat the safety feature.

At the same time, the M9 can be carried hammer down, requiring a DA pull to fire.

What gets me is the striker fired pistols, with no safety device being carried cocked and unlocked.

Like I said about my XD-M's you can completely forget the safeties and still fire the pistol, because they are automatically. But while you carry it the trigger and sear are locked. And being automatic, you can argue they can unintentionally be deactivated, but likely only momentarily, but also having two of them then multiply' s out those probabilities out to be much less....
 
RickAnderson said:
I agree with you, I can see how in a stressful situation, forgetting to switch the safety to fire. But that should be overcome with Training and Drilling, not simply defeat the safety feature.

At the same time, the M9 can be carried hammer down, requiring a DA pull to fire.

What gets me is the striker fired pistols, with no safety device being carried cocked and unlocked.

Like I said about my XD-M's you can completely forget the safeties and still fire the pistol, because they are automatically. But while you carry it the trigger and sear are locked. And being automatic, you can argue they can unintentionally be deactivated, but likely only momentarily, but also having two of them then multiply' s out those probabilities out to be much less....
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You can break it down farther as there are 2 groups of striker handguns.
1 Glock
2 Almost Everyone else

Glock the striker is forward and pulling the trigger actually compresses the striker and releases. Like a pinball

Most other designs including the XD is cocked or partially cocked.
They have the same internal safeties as drop safety, firing pin safety etc just a different design.

I remember when the XD (or HS2000 came out) IDPA classes it into the Enhanced Service Pistol for a time as they considered it Single Action. That has Spence changed as M&Ps are the same and shot in Production class

As far as the M9 we never had an issue with the safety getting inadvertently flipped to on however of interest I was at a Seminar 30 years ago and conversed with anLA Sheriff Department guy . LASD Carrie’s their M92s on safe as a Officer safety issue for if they got disarmed and the way the Beretta safety works it’s sort of spring loaded and upon drawing do a simple downward swipe with the thumb like when disengaging a 1911 safety and the Beretta flips to fire. It does work and can be mastered very easily.

He also said that whole urban legend of gang members ripping Betetta slides off of officers guns leaving them holding the lower frame was BS and just that. A legend spread by the I’ll informed but that’s another thread!
 
The 2nd Gulf War I was on a CG's staff, worked my a$$ off in an office in a combat zone, but I was relatively safe.
Marines train and drill for someone trying to take away their weapon, especially for these insurgency operations. So I would be in the daily staff meeting with Theater level command and listening to the reports of all the subordinate commands. About at a one every 2 weeks frequency, there was report that was always the same, an Iraqi male tried to wrestle a Rifle away from a Marine, that Iraqi is now deceased.

The principle was a martial move to set the attacker off balance, regain control of the rifle and point and shoot. It obviously was very effective.

We had two Marines practice the Hollywood takedown of the Berretta 92, I warned them of the foolishness, chance are 100 times greater they'll kill one of themselves with a discharge then they would ever use it in real life and actually work. At least they quadruple checked unloaded and unchambered. And they got surprising good to be able to do it quickly. But never once got to the point they can do it faster than someone can pull the trigger.
 
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ECS686 said:
You can break it down farther as there are 2 groups of striker handguns.
1 Glock
2 Almost Everyone else

Glock the striker is forward and pulling the trigger actually compresses the striker and releases. Like a pinball

Most other designs including the XD is cocked or partially cocked.
They have the same internal safeties as drop safety, firing pin safety etc just a different design.

I remember when the XD (or HS2000 came out) IDPA classes it into the Enhanced Service Pistol for a time as they considered it Single Action. That has Spence changed as M&Ps are the same and shot in Production class

As far as the M9 we never had an issue with the safety getting inadvertently flipped to on however of interest I was at a Seminar 30 years ago and conversed with anLA Sheriff Department guy . LASD Carrie’s their M92s on safe as a Officer safety issue for if they got disarmed and the way the Beretta safety works it’s sort of spring loaded and upon drawing do a simple downward swipe with the thumb like when disengaging a 1911 safety and the Beretta flips to fire. It does work and can be mastered very easily.

He also said that whole urban legend of gang members ripping Betetta slides off of officers guns leaving them holding the lower frame was BS and just that. A legend spread by the I’ll informed but that’s another thread!
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IMG_1227.jpeg
 
RickAnderson said:
The 2nd Gulf War I was on a CG's staff, worked my a$$ off in an office in a combat zone, but I was relatively safe.
Marines train and drill for someone trying to take away their weapon, especially for these insurgency operations. So I would be in the daily staff meeting with Theater level command and listening to the reports of all the subordinate commands. About at a one every 2 weeks frequency, there was report that was always the same, an Iraqi male tried to wrestle a Rifle away from a Marine, that Iraqi is now deceased.

The principle was a martial move to set the attacker off balance, regain control of the rifle and point and shoot. It obviously was very effective.

We had two Marines practice the Hollywood takedown of the Berretta 92, I warned them of the foolishness, chance are 100 times greater they'll kill one of themselves with a discharge then they would ever use it in real life and actually work. At least they quadruple checked unloaded and unchambered. And they got surprising good to be able to do it quickly. But never once got to the point they can do it faster than someone can pull the trigger.
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It’s a lot harder with rounds in it as there’s more resistance. We tried with dummy rounds and it’s not really as doable as Jackie Chan makes it look!

And besides woukd someone really stand still while someone’s trying to do some Voodoo to the handgun they are holding?
 
HansGruber said:
Why do you need an “off” while unloading?

Drop the mag, lock the slide to the rear, ejecting the round…not gonna go bang.

While loading…yes, there is a chance of hammer follow, particularly if you mucked with stiff you shouldn’t have mucked with…I know first hand, as I had a buddy’s “garage gunsmithed” 1911 go cyclic on me when I chambered a round…fortunately, it was pointed downrange, and I think even most of the rounds went into the berm…

Which is why now on ALL bottom-feeder pistols, I use what’s called a “charger mag”—that is, a magazine that has only one round loaded that I chamber…then replace it with a full mag.

Note that I do this on ALL autos, though; it can happen with strikers, or DA/SA autos as well.
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Outstanding thing to do. No one can ever say you are being too careful. But accidents cant be undone.
 
ECS686 said:
You can break it down farther as there are 2 groups of striker handguns.
1 Glock
2 Almost Everyone else

Glock the striker is forward and pulling the trigger actually compresses the striker and releases. Like a pinball

Most other designs including the XD is cocked or partially cocked.
They have the same internal safeties as drop safety, firing pin safety etc just a different design.

I remember when the XD (or HS2000 came out) IDPA classes it into the Enhanced Service Pistol for a time as they considered it Single Action. That has Spence changed as M&Ps are the same and shot in Production class

As far as the M9 we never had an issue with the safety getting inadvertently flipped to on however of interest I was at a Seminar 30 years ago and conversed with anLA Sheriff Department guy . LASD Carrie’s their M92s on safe as a Officer safety issue for if they got disarmed and the way the Beretta safety works it’s sort of spring loaded and upon drawing do a simple downward swipe with the thumb like when disengaging a 1911 safety and the Beretta flips to fire. It does work and can be mastered very easily.

He also said that whole urban legend of gang members ripping Betetta slides off of officers guns leaving them holding the lower frame was BS and just that. A legend spread by the I’ll informed but that’s another thread!
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NOT EXACTLY TRUE! The trigger movement doesn't push and pull the striker. When the slide moves rearward (as in charging) the striker/firing pin is blocked/held in place until the disconnect pushes up to release it. Although the striker/firing pin isn't under spring pressure it does need a slap on the back ;) to fire. Glock (can't state as what others have) has the spring in front of the striker/firing pin so the only way (other than visually checking the chamber) to know if a round is chambered is the extractor position. Some others have (like xdm models) an indicator on top by the hood, hole at the top rear of the hood (s&w) or a hole in the plate at the back of the slide.
 
ECS686 said:
You can break it down farther as there are 2 groups of striker handguns.
1 Glock
2 Almost Everyone else

Glock the striker is forward and pulling the trigger actually compresses the striker and releases. Like a pinball

Most other designs including the XD is cocked or partially cocked.
They have the same internal safeties as drop safety, firing pin safety etc just a different design.

I remember when the XD (or HS2000 came out) IDPA classes it into the Enhanced Service Pistol for a time as they considered it Single Action. That has Spence changed as M&Ps are the same and shot in Production class

As far as the M9 we never had an issue with the safety getting inadvertently flipped to on however of interest I was at a Seminar 30 years ago and conversed with anLA Sheriff Department guy . LASD Carrie’s their M92s on safe as a Officer safety issue for if they got disarmed and the way the Beretta safety works it’s sort of spring loaded and upon drawing do a simple downward swipe with the thumb like when disengaging a 1911 safety and the Beretta flips to fire. It does work and can be mastered very easily.

He also said that whole urban legend of gang members ripping Betetta slides off of officers guns leaving them holding the lower frame was BS and just that. A legend spread by the I’ll informed but that’s another thread!
Click to expand...

There’s a third:

3-The HK P7.

Trigger is dead, unless you squeeze the cocking handle on the front of the grip…then you have a very nice SAO trigger.
 
TEXASforLIFE said:
NOT EXACTLY TRUE! The trigger movement doesn't push and pull the striker. When the slide moves rearward (as in charging) the striker/firing pin is blocked/held in place until the disconnect pushes up to release it. Although the striker/firing pin isn't under spring pressure it does need a slap on the back ;) to fire. Glock (can't state as what others have) has the spring in front of the striker/firing pin so the only way (other than visually checking the chamber) to know if a round is chambered is the extractor position. Some others have (like xdm models) an indicator on top by the hood, hole at the top rear of the hood (s&w) or a hole in the plate at the back of the slide.
Click to expand...
1BA004D8-A7C4-4ECE-819D-95B9AB995B87.gif
 
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