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Is Colion Noir right about open carry?

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HayesGreener said:
In my years working the street I experienced multiple occasions of suspects attempting to take my, or another officer's firearm. I can assure you that it is an absolutely religious experience to be in a fight to retain your gun. I taught weapon retention techniques and primal violence is the best way I can describe it as you know what he is going to do with it if he gets it.

As one of my instructors said in an academy more than 50 years ago, "There is always at least one gun present on every call or stop", The Level III retention holster is a great invention to counter gun grabs but still not 100%. In my opinion open carrying with an unsecure holster is simply irresponsible.
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One attribute that Boxing and Martial Arts training usually provides is teaching you to keep your elbows close to your body which is one of the basics I teach in firearm retention and martial arts training.

I prefer to have my concealed handgun(and knife) to be close to my body, making retention a little easier.

When you're wearing a uniform and duty belt and the firearm is on your hip, it's harder to practice firearm retention. Fortunately there are good holsters for law enforcement that provide good retention(Safariland is what I used).

A uniformed officer and armed security officer has to deal with firearm retention issues that I concealed carrying civilian shouldn't have to(but that open carry creates).

You usually expect a uniformed security or law enforcement officer to be armed. When you see a civilian open carrying it gets your attention. That's the part some people don't get. Most times drawing attention to yourself as a civilian is not a good thing.

If you live in an area where Open Carry is common then you probably won't draw much attention.

If I open carried at any HEB store down in the Rio Grande Valley I can guarantee you I'd get noticed and most of the attention would be negative because it's not common down here. However, if you're at a ranch or farm in the Rio Grande Valley Open Carry wouldn't be a big deal because of rattlesnakes, coyotes, illegal aliens coming across your land, etc, etc.

Like others have said, know your laws, know your environment.
 
The Night Rider said:
Tamara Keel wrote an article about open carry in which she said "There are people who open carry and people who open carry AT YOU." She went on to predict that if the practice continued sooner or later there would be some pushback.

I have some friends who live in Texas and they told me that when the open carry activists finally got open carry legislation passed a bunch of businesses that had never been posted against concealed carry immediately put up 30.07 signs and they put up 30.06 signs right next to them.

When Starbucks got caught in the middle of the controversy they solved the problem by specifically asking their customers not to bring any guns at all to their stores. In many states that simple request has the force of law.

When some idiot in a Tac vest walked into a Walmart in Springfield Missouri carrying an AR less than a week after somebody shot 20 something people in a Walmart in El Paso Texas Walmart responded by banning open carry in all of their stores Nationwide.

Kroger's, King Soopers, Safeway, Food Lion, Target and the list goes on followed suit. I can't know this of course but I suspect that if the open carry idiots push the issue these businesses will respond by banning all carry on their property.

Open carry is not winning us any Hearts or Minds. In fact it's turning people against us.

There is not a single, reputable trainer who advocates open carry that I am aware of.

Subject to the rights of property owners to ban the practice on their property, I think you should be your choice but it's not something you'll ever catch me doing.
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Very eloquently put. Thank you.
 
somorris said:
My wife and I shop at out local Walmart quite often. I see folks in their PJ’s but I have no idea what “the Walmart walk” is. I guess I have lived a sheltered life!
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David N. said:
The "Walmart walk" was mentioned somewhere online to describe a first timer's experience with concealed carry.
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The first time I ever heard of the Walmart walk was on a forum called The High Road.

The idea was that you go to Walmart and walk around the store to convince yourself that it's not obvious to everyone around you that (if you're doing it correctly) you're carrying a concealed handgun.

When the practice was first initiated apparently you could buy nachos at Walmart. So the idea was that you go to your Walmart walk and get an order of nachos and eat it and then you're done.

ETA: I went and looked it up and apparently you eat the nachos first and then you don't wash your hands. The idea is that your hands are grubby and nasty and greasy and is a reminder not to touch your gun or adjust it or anything
 
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Old_Me said:
so you think that i should "broadcast" that i have a gun, by open carrying..??

well i for one will not advertise that i carry, and as a result, not be the first target of an assault to get me out of the way.
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I don't care what you do personally. Colion's arguments against open carry just aren't convincing. If someone doesn't feel comfortable open carrying, that's fine. But that's an entirely different argument that his strawman arguments against it.

With concealed carry, if I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all.
 
gunguy1911 said:
I don't care what you do personally. Colion's arguments against open carry just aren't convincing. If someone doesn't feel comfortable open carrying, that's fine. But that's an entirely different argument that his strawman arguments against it.

With concealed carry, if I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all.
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do you have his education and background..??

He earned a political science degree from the University of Houston and a J.D. degree from the Thurgood Marshall School of Law at Texas Southern University, also in Houston.

his JD degree means,

The Juris Doctor, also known as Doctor of Jurisprudence, is a graduate-entry professional degree in law and one of several Doctor of Law degrees. The J.D. is the standard degree obtained to practice law in the United States; unlike in some other jurisdictions, there is no undergraduate law degree in the United States

he most likely looking at things from a legal standpoint.

i like the guy, watch his channel weekly, i think he says what needs to be said legally, not haphazardly
 
Old_Me said:
do you have his education and background..??

He earned a political science degree from the University of Houston and a J.D. degree from the Thurgood Marshall School of Law at Texas Southern University, also in Houston.

his JD degree means,

The Juris Doctor, also known as Doctor of Jurisprudence, is a graduate-entry professional degree in law and one of several Doctor of Law degrees. The J.D. is the standard degree obtained to practice law in the United States; unlike in some other jurisdictions, there is no undergraduate law degree in the United States

he most likely looking at things from a legal standpoint.

i like the guy, watch his channel weekly, i think he says what needs to be said legally, not haphazardly
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This is just an argumentum ad verecundiam. It nether proves or disapproves Colion's argument. His whole argument was a strawman which is also a logical fallacy.
 
HayesGreener said:
The idea that openly carrying a firearm will make you less likely to be a victim is fantasy. It can be provacative and at worse can make you a target. Like The Duke said, A man should do what he thinks is best. I will continue endeavoring to be the Grey Man.
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If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all.
 
gunguy1911 said:
This is just an argumentum ad verecundiam. It nether proves or disapproves Colion's argument. His whole argument was a strawman which is also a logical fallacy.
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ok Mr.Spock....

you need to be beamed up now and

you go be logical with yourself, on the Enterprise.
 
gunguy1911 said:
If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all.
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I've had numerous people make it absolutely clear that the fact that I was armed had absolutely nothing to do with their victim selection selection process.

If anything caused someone to break off prior to contact it was me making them aware that I was aware of their presence and willing to fight.

Care to comment on that ?
 
gunguy1911 said:
If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all.
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Conversely there is the very real arguement that it also puts you in the disadvantage of thier knowing you are armed and not knowing thry are in fact armed. Giving the advantage of shooting you before you even know they are armed if they so choose.

There are two sides to the arguement, both which can.be considered valid. You obviously believe one side, others like myself are in favor of not giving the bad guy any type of advantage.

I respect your opinion, for you... I choose a hard pass on open carry in public.
 
gunguy1911 said:
If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all.
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IMHO the appearance of being “as easy a target as almost anyone Else” isn’t dictated solely by whether one appears to be armed or not, other factors play into the predators calculation such as:

1. Do you appear to be aware of your surroundings or are you walking around with your face buried in a cellphone?

2. How you carry yourself, are you walking /moving quickly & confidently or do you appear to be lethargic and frail?

3.Are you sportin’ all sorts of expensive baubles or do you look like an average working stiff?

4. Does your demeanor make you appear like someone that will put up a fight or like someone that will cower in fear?

Based on my research criminals in general are ambush predators that seek out the weakest prey that they have the best chance of surprising, in other words, they’re cowards.
 
The only time I openly carry is on duty in uniform or if I happen to be teaching weapons classes and happen to stop somewhere for let's say a coffee or lunch. Other than that I conceal carry. I don't want any attention drawn to me and also on and off duty no one gets that close to me and my head is always turning and scanning my surroundings. Plus after 31 years on the JOB now I developed pretty good people behavior reading skills. Just my two cents...
 
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